Passing

[DogwoodTree]

I truly appreciate your sharing in such depth because I can relate to a great deal of what you have outlined.

I really appreciate these great questions and threads you've been starting. It's enjoyable to have these challenging and deep conversations.

The question is. Do we have to wear more beautiful/sophisticated masks then what NT's do to compensate for that fact that we are aspies? Or do we hate the idea of having to wear a mask in general?

Now that is a very insightful question, imo. Yes, I think NTs use masks for various purposes, too. And yes, I think their masks are qualitatively different than what we're doing. I also think it's less conscious for them, and less of a burden. I think, for them, it looks more like "filtering" than it does "faking", if that makes any sense.

It's ironic to me that we aspies are so bothered by anything that is not true, and yet, many of us rely heavily on masks that are so disconnected from who we really are. I think that might actually be part of why we're so annoyed by untruths...we see so much falsehood/faking being necessary in order to function, and sometimes I really just want to be completely honest with someone without their being offended or scared off. (And so, on a side note...I work towards being as un-offendable as I possibly can, in order to promote this kind of self-control lifestyle. I try to appreciate when someone is honest with me, even if they're blunt--it's refreshing to see people with that kind of courage.)

I find that I'm often caught in a catch-22. Like, if I'm completely honest with this person that, in fact, I don't like them and I think they're kinda ugly and have a terrible sense of fashion and never have anything interesting to say...it wouldn't be nice to tell them those things, even though that's what I really think. But I also choose to be a nice person. So...should I be honest, or nice? Nice usually wins out, because despite my internal dilemma, I don't want to hurt the other person.

So I'm not faking for the purpose of manipulating people in self-serving objectives. I'm faking because I don't want to hurt other people with the things that I might be thinking or feeling or bothered by. (Perhaps NTs have a better sense of when to lean towards nice, and when to lean towards honesty?)

Like the other day at my kids' music recital...there were some people in the room who kept rustling their papers during kids' performances. This might not bother most people in the moment, but I knew that those sounds would likely show up on each family's video recording of their child's performance. It made me angry that people were so disrespectful. I wanted to hop up in between performances and remind everyone to please keep their papers still, and not be so careless as to drop things out of their laps (which happened about a half dozen times during this 45-min recital, which made a crashing sound each time).

So on one hand, I realize my sensitivities make me more aware of these kinds of distractions than other people are, and so I should probably just keep it to myself. But on the other hand, I'm pretty sure these people's carelessness was negatively affecting the recordings of each of our kids' performances. I even noticed a couple of times where families got really quiet for their own kid's performance, but continued making all kinds of noise during other kids' performances. I wasn't just concerned about my own kids--I was angry that people were so disrespectful in general...to all of the kids and families. But--I kept my mouth shut because I decided it was more important for me to be "nice" and leave it to someone in charge to say something if they felt it was necessary.

That's a rather benign example that some NTs might occasionally face as well, but I deal with these kinds of dilemmas all day long, in dozens and dozens of different situations. When my mother asks me what I think of her pedicured toenails, do I be honest and tell her that I think toes and bare feet are gross and I don't even want to look? Or do I be nice and tell her they're beautiful? When someone brightly says "Hi" as we're walking past each other, do I smile and say "Hi" back, or do I scowl and say "Go away", because I really don't want to talk to strangers? Of course I was nice in that situation...the person doesn't know me...there was no point in being rude, no matter how honest it would have been. But it makes my skin crawl to do it.

 

[Southern Discomfort]

I guess I should feel quite lucky to be able to pass; I get the basics of communicating effectively to people and I don't have problems identifying emotional states in myself or others. You'd need to know me well in order to realise there's something different about me. But it's not all great, my motor tics, although rather inconspicuous, will display that I'm different to other people, something which I feel is only going to get worse with time.

 

[watersprite]

As time has passed I've become both less adept & less concerned with passing. But there are situations in which I use my energy to blend as much as is physically possible.

 

[tree]

As time has passed I've become less adept & less concerned with passing.

I am liking the 'less concerned' aspect.
I am not certain what to think about the
self-evaluation of becoming 'less adept.'

 

[watersprite]

For some reason I can't get the quote thingy to work. Anyway, tree, the self evaluation is not a put-down of myself, but refers to ongoing stims which I find happening in various circumstances whenever I am not exerting control over them. Such as rocking during a required discussion with one of my son's teachers. When reminded by self or others I can stop or change a stim.

 

[tree]

For some reason I can't get the quote thingy to work. Anyway, tree, the self evaluation is not a put-down of myself, but refers to ongoing stims which I find happening in various circumstances whenever I am not exerting control over them. Such as rocking during a required discussion with one of my son's teachers. When reminded by self or others I can stop or change a stim.

That doesn't sound like 'less-adept'
to me.

 

[watersprite]

Heh, true, this is written in hindsight. The example I gave was one of numerous times when someone told me after the fact, in this case, "did you know you were rocking during the whole conversation in the clasroom? The teacher also teaches the special needs students and most likely guessed that you are on the spectrum."

So yes, I fail to catch my stims as well at fail at both speaking (sometimes this is funny, sometimes not) and understanding of words when in real life stressful situations where it is generally assumed I am supposed to be listening and getting the emotional intent of the speaker's conversation.

Have I said something wrong here? You seem to be arguing with me?

 

[tree]

Heh, true, this is written in hindsight. The example I gave was one of numerous times when someone told me after the fact, in this case, "did you know you were rocking during the whole conversation in the clasroom? The teacher also teaches the special needs students and most likely guessed that you are on the spectrum."

So yes, I fail to catch my stims as well at fail at both speaking (sometimes this is funny, sometimes not) and understanding of words when in real life stressful situations where it is generally assumed I am supposed to be listening and getting the emotional intent of the speaker's conversation.

Have I said something wrong here? You seem to be arguing with me?

Why is saying what I think "arguing"?

I am not arguing.

 

[watersprite]

tree that's good - it seemed like that was, if not, then yay.

 

[Professori]

I really appreciate these great questions and threads you've been starting. It's enjoyable to have these challenging and deep conversations.



Now that is a very insightful question, imo. Yes, I think NTs use masks for various purposes, too. And yes, I think their masks are qualitatively different than what we're doing. I also think it's less conscious for them, and less of a burden. I think, for them, it looks more like "filtering" than it does "faking", if that makes any sense.

It's ironic to me that we aspies are so bothered by anything that is not true, and yet, many of us rely heavily on masks that are so disconnected from who we really are. I think that might actually be part of why we're so annoyed by untruths...we see so much falsehood/faking being necessary in order to function, and sometimes I really just want to be completely honest with someone without their being offended or scared off. (And so, on a side note...I work towards being as un-offendable as I possibly can, in order to promote this kind of self-control lifestyle. I try to appreciate when someone is honest with me, even if they're blunt--it's refreshing to see people with that kind of courage.)

I find that I'm often caught in a catch-22. Like, if I'm completely honest with this person that, in fact, I don't like them and I think they're kinda ugly and have a terrible sense of fashion and never have anything interesting to say...it wouldn't be nice to tell them those things, even though that's what I really think. But I also choose to be a nice person. So...should I be honest, or nice? Nice usually wins out, because despite my internal dilemma, I don't want to hurt the other person.

So I'm not faking for the purpose of manipulating people in self-serving objectives. I'm faking because I don't want to hurt other people with the things that I might be thinking or feeling or bothered by. (Perhaps NTs have a better sense of when to lean towards nice, and when to lean towards honesty?)

Like the other day at my kids' music recital...there were some people in the room who kept rustling their papers during kids' performances. This might not bother most people in the moment, but I knew that those sounds would likely show up on each family's video recording of their child's performance. It made me angry that people were so disrespectful. I wanted to hop up in between performances and remind everyone to please keep their papers still, and not be so careless as to drop things out of their laps (which happened about a half dozen times during this 45-min recital, which made a crashing sound each time).

So on one hand, I realize my sensitivities make me more aware of these kinds of distractions than other people are, and so I should probably just keep it to myself. But on the other hand, I'm pretty sure these people's carelessness was negatively affecting the recordings of each of our kids' performances. I even noticed a couple of times where families got really quiet for their own kid's performance, but continued making all kinds of noise during other kids' performances. I wasn't just concerned about my own kids--I was angry that people were so disrespectful in general...to all of the kids and families. But--I kept my mouth shut because I decided it was more important for me to be "nice" and leave it to someone in charge to say something if they felt it was necessary.

That's a rather benign example that some NTs might occasionally face as well, but I deal with these kinds of dilemmas all day long, in dozens and dozens of different situations. When my mother asks me what I think of her pedicured toenails, do I be honest and tell her that I think toes and bare feet are gross and I don't even want to look? Or do I be nice and tell her they're beautiful? When someone brightly says "Hi" as we're walking past each other, do I smile and say "Hi" back, or do I scowl and say "Go away", because I really don't want to talk to strangers? Of course I was nice in that situation...the person doesn't know me...there was no point in being rude, no matter how honest it would have been. But it makes my skin crawl to do it.

The issue in relation to your example of the music recital is the one that I largely struggle with. The fact is, that generally others only seem to be concerned with the way in which Aspies negatively affect their lives, but really could not be bothered with the ways in which they negatively affect the lives of Aspies. This also applies to groups of people in general, even if Aspies are not part of the equation - it is the selfishness, the self-centeredness.

Whether or not one should refuse to pass is difficult to judge, given that one does gain as a result of the process, for example in a job interview, but often the effects that it has on many Aspies is not worth the energy. However, disclosure - revealing one's status - also seems to come with costs, and I would assume that most Aspies only disclose to those who are closest to them. The issue of disclosure and the consequences in doing so are the basis for another thread.

 

[laurag9g9g9]

Really good to read someone's epiphany! Great that you turned your life around after such a tough time, and that you can live by the Golden Rule since many sink into anger and resentment - very self-destructive. I can relate to your story and also went off the rails for a while - lost. However, I ended up with a battle with cancer, and being institutionalized for supposedly being 'psychotic'. However, I can tell you that I met more people who made sense in that institution than in the 'normal' world out there.

It is a long walk.

You're awesome. I also appreciate your honesty and knowledge. I had a meltdown at the dentist today. Reading AC posts calmed me. Thank you[emoji274]

 

[Nitro]

Pass as a neurotypical? With ease. They are not all that hard to figure out. I consider it as a game that I wanted to play.For the most part,the world valued what I had to offer and I was willing to sell it to them after I named my price.I still run a pretty good game even though I am now retired from the working world.

I only wore a mask when it was necessary to interact with my surroundings. I am a what you see is what you get person most of the time.Tiring to wear a mask,hell no. Good at it,very.


I have had about enough of the political correctness game here and now you will mostly see the real me.Talk it out? I don't think so,it is more in line with knock it out when the sh*t starts to fly. I busted a lot of heads over the years and made quite a few enemies in the process.That gained me a ton of respect and and really true blue friends that I could count on. The "us and them" attitude is worthless and accomplishes nothing in the end in my honest opinion.Bullied? Not after a few got their asses beat into submission and the word got out that I was no longer a favorable target.

"I can't find a friend" yes you can,surround yourself with like-minded individuals and the "blending" is easy. Geeks and freaks all speak the same language and no one stands out in that setting. If you do,make what you have to say important enough that others want to listen to what you have to say. That is how respect is earned and friendships often follow. Be a leader and not a follower. The sled dog that is not in the front never gets a change of the scenery,only the view of another dog's butt.

Aspie utopia...not a chance of that ever happening. Neurotypicals have their own set of psychological challenges just as we auties do. The mere though that a NT person gets up in the morning just to make an autistics day horrible is so far off the mark that it is crazy talk. Where the hell does that silly idea come from?

I survived for over 50 years as an autie before I knew what made me different without the help of professionals,therapy,psychiatrists or psychologists. When I broke my brain,my set of pros never questioned it either,it was me that pointed it out to them during the final phases of my recovery. Funny how that all worked out,they were supposed to be the braniacs,not me. Yeah,I got a really cool label from them when it was all over. I still think they were wrong too as I study my condition further.Can you say special interest kids?

We are not all peace loving individuals,that is another stereotypical myth in my honest opinion. Not all of us are genius level either,I have met some pretty stupid individuals in all walk of life,so it can also apply to the autism spectrum too. I was once told by a mod here that the reason we all think we are right most of the time is because none of us wants to appear inferior to each other. I actually agreed with her on that one because she was very right.

This site is a support and information place for individuals who are struggling and/or learning,not a great cross section of the autism spectrum at all. The autistic population estimates are a sham in my opinion because I am very sure there are many on the spectrum who will never be outed such as I who was never questioned in my past about anything related to it. If you aren't outed and don't have any issues that are severe enough to get noticed,you never will get any attention or possibly never know. Did I find comfort in knowing I was different? Nope,not one bit,it only explained a lot of my past and why I had the deficits I did have...it was pretty cool to have an explanation of why I also turned out so good,but as I say,I'm not better than anyone,just different than most.

The wrapup of this little rant is that I am proud to be autistic,not ashamed or even left with a feeling of being slighted in any way. I often us my autie status as a defense mechanism to ward off those who don't understand anything about it...they tend to shy away from what they consider a freak. The ones who do understand a little about it are amazed at what I can and have done.

 

[hiraeth]

I have to admit that this whole premise is a little bit strange to me.

It is useful to have a diagnosis sometimes. If and when I come across people who I would like to befriend, I have the privilege of mentioning this to them as a succinct way of communicating the plethora of difficulties they may see me have in the days ahead - that is, a big infodump about my quirks all in one go. Body language problems, overstimulated senses, shutting down, struggling with being verbal, physical clumsiness.... don't worry, friend, it's not you, it's me, and I'm fully conscious of what my limitations are, as well as working as best as I can with or around them.

But otherwise, it doesn't really matter. So what if I'm a little bit obviously eccentric and I can't help it? I don't really think of this divide between "aspie me" and "NT them". (Does thinking that way really make living in the world easier?) The world is a very large place, and it's big enough to fit everyone, with every kind of diversity of experiences and limitations. If a specific situation arises where I'm conscious of my quirks showing, I'll just mention that one thing in the context (ie: I can't go to bars, loud noise gives me headaches) and then that's that. That's the only thing that is necessary to be told in that particular circumstance. I don't really need a label of aspergers to make me feel like that physical limitation is valid and I don't desire to overshare more than what any given situation requires, because it's doesn't feel so relevant.

 

[Professori]

I have to admit that this whole premise is a little bit strange to me.

It is useful to have a diagnosis sometimes. If and when I come across people who I would like to befriend, I have the privilege of mentioning this to them as a succinct way of communicating the plethora of difficulties they may see me have in the days ahead - that is, a big infodump about my quirks all in one go. Body language problems, overstimulated senses, shutting down, struggling with being verbal, physical clumsiness.... don't worry, friend, it's not you, it's me, and I'm fully conscious of what my limitations are, as well as working as best as I can with or around them.

But otherwise, it doesn't really matter. So what if I'm a little bit obviously eccentric and I can't help it? I don't really think of this divide between "aspie me" and "NT them". (Does thinking that way really make living in the world easier?) The world is a very large place, and it's big enough to fit everyone, with every kind of diversity of experiences and limitations. If a specific situation arises where I'm conscious of my quirks showing, I'll just mention that one thing in the context (ie: I can't go to bars, loud noise gives me headaches) and then that's that. That's the only thing that is necessary to be told in that particular circumstance. I don't really need a label of aspergers to make me feel like that physical limitation is valid and I don't desire to overshare more than what any given situation requires, because it's doesn't feel so relevant.

That is a great way to think about it and experience it. I suppose it does depend on one's 'Aspie traits', and so if one is more than a little eccentric in a range of ways then it could pose a problem. The permanent working environment is also important because if one is forced to conform to a set of social rules that fly in the face of Aspie traits then it causes serious cognitive dissonance. It is very true that some environments simply are not tolerant of 'eccentricity' or differences and conformity is a covert demand, or subtle ostracism is the alternative. If one can avoid such working environments, or even find alternatives, then great.

 

[wanderer03]

That is a great way to think about it and experience it. I suppose it does depend on one's 'Aspie traits', and so if one is more than a little eccentric in a range of ways then it could pose a problem. The permanent working environment is also important because if one is forced to conform to a set of social rules that fly in the face of Aspie traits then it causes serious cognitive dissonance. It is very true that some environments simply are not tolerant of 'eccentricity' or differences and conformity is a covert demand, or subtle ostracism is the alternative. If one can avoid such working environments, or even find alternatives, then great.

This is precisely why I chose an entirely different career path for myself. I went from white to blue collar. It seems like the range of tolerance for eccentricity is larger for a blue collar person, especially as a truck/bus driver. It's as if people aren't shocked at all when I accidently let an aspie trait show.

 

[Professori]

This is precisely why I chose an entirely different career path for myself. I went from white to blue collar. It seems like the range of tolerance for eccentricity is larger for a blue collar person, especially as a truck/bus driver. It's as if people aren't shocked at all when I accidently let an aspie trait show.

I find that very interesting because I experience exactly that kind of intolerance amongst those 'academics' who should know better (especially in the Psychology environment!). These are supposedly white collar. I have not worked amongst blue collar, but my experience of them is very different with much more tolerance.

 

[FreeDiver]

Whether or not one should refuse to pass is difficult to judge, given that one does gain as a result of the process, for example in a job interview, but often the effects that it has on many Aspies is not worth the energy. However, disclosure - revealing one's status - also seems to come with costs, and I would assume that most Aspies only disclose to those who are closest to them. The issue of disclosure and the consequences in doing so are the basis for another thread.

Even if you can pass off as being good. BE CAREFUL!!. Sometimes, you can pass off as being too good. There is an old saying "Don't run a sprint, if you have to run a marathon.". It's easy to think that if I can just get through that interview. Yes it will be tough to do, but it's only for a brief moment and it will be all over soon. RIGHT? Well what happen when you boss expect you to perform at the same level on the job as you did in the interview? Well guess what, you're screwed. I don't know if you call this a karma thing. But living a lie has a way of coming back to hunt/bite you in the end.

 

[Datura]

Even if you can pass off as being good. BE CAREFUL!!. Sometimes, you can pass off as being too good. There is an old saying "Don't run a sprint, if you have to run a marathon.". It's easy to think that if I can just get through that interview. Yes it will be tough to do, but it's only for a brief moment and it will be all over soon. RIGHT? Well what happen when you boss expect you to perform at the same level on the job as you did in the interview? Well guess what, you're screwed. I don't know if you call this a karma thing. But living a lie has a way of coming back to hunt/bite you in the end.

Yes! This is one of the reasons I hate interviews. In order to get a job one needs to put forth the best first impression they can. Often this means "spinning" the truth (ie. embelishing and lying through omission) but not only does this make me uncomfortable on an ethical level, it also sets a person up for failure as they then have to maintain that lie in perpetuity, which might mean performing at a level they are not capable of.

Then there is the fact that you are supposed to project a certain kind of personality in an interview. This is relatively easy to maintain for a short period, but being a smilng, outgoing, confident socialite is a difficult facade to maintain if that isn't who you already are. This is especially hard when you are dealing the pressures of actually doing a job and not just trying to get one.

 

[laurag9g9g9]

Really good to read someone's epiphany! Great that you turned your life around after such a tough time, and that you can live by the Golden Rule since many sink into anger and resentment - very self-destructive. I can relate to your story and also went off the rails for a while - lost. However, I ended up with a battle with cancer, and being institutionalized for supposedly being 'psychotic'. However, I can tell you that I met more people who made sense in that institution than in the 'normal' world out there.

It is a long walk.

It sounds like you covered all the bases to the 10th degree. I'm glad you made it through. When I read your posts, well... is your IQ off the chart er what?! You make me proud to be an aspie

 

[laurag9g9g9]

Yes! This is one of the reasons I hate interviews. In order to get a job one needs to put forth the best first impression they can. Often this means "spinning" the truth (ie. embelishing and lying through omission) but not only does this make me uncomfortable on an ethical level, it also sets a person up for failure as they then have to maintain that lie in perpetuity, which might mean performing at a level they are not capable of.

Then there is the fact that you are supposed to project a certain kind of personality in an interview. This is relatively easy to maintain for a short period, but being a smilng, outgoing, confident socialite is a difficult facade to maintain if that isn't who you already are. This is especially hard when you are dealing the pressures of actually doing a job and not just trying to get one.

I had to take some kind of psychological profiling test for an interview. The manager and I were both crying by the end of it! I still got the job! They know I'm obsessive about getting things right.