Who here doesn’t have identity?

[Ursus Chainus]

I will leave this here.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

If functional is the ability to produce desired results, dysfunctional can only be negative.

We're not isolated bands of hunter-gatherers hiding from predators and competing with other species and tribes for limited resources, with disease and famine always right around the corner. A lot of the "human survival method" is profoundly harmful and dangerous in a world with 8 billion people and high levels of technical sophistication in war-making. Identity is instinctively a zero-sum game. Killing people because they don't share your identity seems to be the rule and not the exception. Sadly, something we seem to share with chimps.

Freud pointed this out as the pathology of small differences where two groups who share 99% of values and culture will focus on the 1% of the difference to maintain their separate group identity.

Yes! Thus I call us without identity…. Bonobos

 

[Ursus Chainus]

I don’t have identity. My mother died and a family member from my dad’s side told me that I was going to be adopted by someone because my diagnosis said I had retarded development. (Way before she died and I was a baby)

No identity means I am more comfortable in cultures other than I was raised. I am more comfortable with a partner who doesn’t speak my language natively.

For you that talk about God… I don’t have machinery in my brain to believe. I don’t have faith. Everything must be thought through completely, then tested through over a decade of research.

How can someone like that be God’s child? Am I a heathen or a messenger?

I cannot believe. Belief is a part of the “machinery” of identity.

I do not question your belief. You are all beautiful and amazing to me in a humbling way! ( I am humbled)

 

[Au Naturel]

I wish we were bonobos. We aren't chimps, either. Nor are we gorillas. We have some traits of each and some traits we developed on our own.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

I wish we were bonobos. We aren't chimps, either. Nor are we gorillas. We have some traits of each and some traits we developed on our own.

I use the term “bonobo adjacent troop survival strategy”. Bonobo is another modern species

This is a false comparison. Pre-human simians had various survival strategies in their troops. There are actually major differences between modern bonobos and the various inter-mating hominids that lead to us. It was certainly a female centered troop strategy that was replaced when culture/tribe took over. This became more male centered over time… although, “the hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world”.

Women have a central part in promoting the patriarchy. We are part of life, not above it!

Identity is just a word. The complexity that exists in reality is beyond our ability to communicate.

Humans have simple communication compared to the reality. I mean we are so ridiculously stupid that we think we don’t belong to the natural rules that guide all life that we observe

Then again… we are God’s children

Is it “imago dei” or “imagem hominem”?

Forgive me, my Latin is horribly rusty. I tried to correct using google translate… was better than I thought. Funny that, my mother was led to think I would never speak… much less have rusty Latin!

I learned Latin in 6th grade… pretty good for being disordered

 

[Iberata]

I feel I don't have to conform to a specific identity, so I describe myself
as rather fluid, living my life travelling through different structures. Since
those structures were a given to me by society, meaning I found them already
existing, I guess I can do what I want with them, utilize or deconstruct them
in my way, taking in consideration the social environment and how it influences
me and them.

 

[Ursus Chainus]

You are a jellyfish floating in the current, yes?

 

[Iberata]

Hehe, I sure am.

 

[Neri]

I am ...in a human body. I have roles related to that body, but, I am inhibiting this body like a body puts on different outfits for different purposes. There is way too much nuance and contradiction to define "identity". There are "tendencies", certain skills, inclinations, time and place, diagnosis', stories, maybe even "purpose" but none of these are who "I" am. They are all temporary and only in relation to circumstance. I just am. I am the experiencer. And the doing get done through me and is me, but beyond that, I am still a mystery unto myself. And I like it that way.

 

[Cryptid]

"I think; therefore, I am" pretty much sums up all I need in order to validate my identity to myself.

 

[Au Naturel]

Identity is a temporary construct. We have many different identities, and we bring out the one that is most useful for the situation. One is the sum of everything one has ever thought, done, and seen. As long as you live, you'll keep adding memories and thoughts and experiences that change who you are. (It is much like an ent's name, constantly growing.)

Identity is fluid and changing. Who you are isn't fixed. It is a cloud of probability. People who understand this use it to change who they are and adapt quickly to changing circumstances.

You may say, "That's not me!" but you cannot honestly say that under different circumstances, "That couldn't be me!" Change the circumstances and you'll be a different person.

 

[IFTALES]

The introvert group is the main group I feel a part of, but other than that, yes, I have no identity. I do not feel like a woman, man, girl or boy. I do not feel like a neurotypical, nor one with certain other condition, as I feel that is debatable. I am not just logical , thinking and structured, but feeling, empathetic and spontaneous. I am not young or old, as by age and intelligence and actions I feel older, but for for everything else I feel younger. And for religion, between atheist and agnostic, as I identify not totally with either.

Sexually, I am somewhere in between heterosexual and asexual. For the Myers Brigg personality profile for a few of those categories I am on the border, so I cannot classify into something specific there too. I have no occupational title that fits me best, as I could do many things. I cannot even say I am disabled, as that implies I could not be independent and functional in most ways where there were no people..

Also, I cannot say I am generally a confident or shy person now, as that could be true and false, as it depends on the situation. And I cannot say I am the blue or white collar type as I could potentially do both and favor neither . I am not into any of the two political parties, so no group for me there, and I lead in ways just as much as I could follow, if need be.

I suppose there must some groups I could identify with, like the human race group, but I feel so different from people there too. So, I guess I am just an introvert for now, as people do not interest me most of the time. I usually do things by myself, as I am most effective and efficient that way. And I will put myself in the "person" group too. So, being an introverted person maybe is my identity..

Your statements agree with some of my own internal understandings. That's Why I feel consciousness overall is a reflection process, because what you are describing is that you simply mirror most of the time the patterns around you. It's also why you can kind of do everything - I think in ASD physical mirroring is fundamentally turned up louder - so all the physical senses are higher, while the emotional mirroring is the opposite. turned down. It's like we are tuned for or stuck in combat mode, where emotional mirroring and resonance are turned down, and physical mirroring is turned up. So think of it like a chameleon ability that can be used to blend in with predators or prey groups. So I do well in groups where behavior is very controlled because then I just mirror the pack behavior and all is well. The real me is difficult for anyone to see in some ways, because I am such a good mirror and my default disposition is to mask. I am not hiding per se but its like a chameleon field springs on the moment other humans come into my field. lol

 

[1ForAll]

Your statements agree with some of my own internal understandings. That's Why I feel consciousness overall is a reflection process, because what you are describing is that you simply mirror most of the time the patterns around you. It's also why you can kind of do everything - I think in ASD physical mirroring is fundamentally turned up louder - so all the physical senses are higher, while the emotional mirroring is the opposite. turned down. It's like we are tuned for or stuck in combat mode, where emotional mirroring and resonance are turned down, and physical mirroring is turned up. So think of it like a chameleon ability that can be used to blend in with predators or prey groups. So I do well in groups where behavior is very controlled because then I just mirror the pack behavior and all is well. The real me is difficult for anyone to see in some ways, because I am such a good mirror and my default disposition is to mask. I am not hiding per se but its like a chameleon field springs on the moment other humans come into my field. lol

Besides what you mentioned, which I agree much with, as I am a perfectionist, but who often avoids conflict, this means weighing all possible outcomes and using both my head and heart to do what is not just best for me or others, but hopefully somewhere in between. I mean, although I have a high stress tolerance and not many needs, so I can put others first often, and as I get much happiness this way, I can suffer burn out and lose some motivation if I sense others either not open minded, appreciating my efforts or if I see something that tells me masking is imperfect for that situation.

I have a need to be me, and to not deceive, but I use the empathetic side to know when to either mask some, change the topic if I disagree strongly, or whether to debate the message. I rarely will agree with something I am strongly against, or do something I am strongly against, but I admit staying in the middle and seeing all perspectives seems often the smartest and safest choice for me, as it is hard to.make severe judgments of others based on often limited information I have, and as I am not like most of them.

 

[Ghostinthemachine]

This whole thread strikes a cord with me.around my late diagnosis I felt very much like a loss of identity till I realised I had been living a lie to myself for most of my life even though I knew something was different.i now view my predisposed life as my adapted personality as I spent all my time and activities adapting just to fit in yet never having known why.now I live an authentic life where I don't hsve to adapt or wear the mask I just say stuff that I'm going to be me now,as awkward and as difficult as it can be I'd rather identify with the authentic me,I haven't got to the point where I want to use the label asd or aspergers but I'm comfortable with being my authentic self,and stuff what others think

 

[Au Naturel]

I am ...in a human body. I have roles related to that body, but, I am inhibiting this body like a body puts on different outfits for different purposes. There is way too much nuance and contradiction to define "identity". There are "tendencies", certain skills, inclinations, time and place, diagnosis', stories, maybe even "purpose" but none of these are who "I" am. They are all temporary and only in relation to circumstance. I just am. I am the experiencer. And the doing get done through me and is me, but beyond that, I am still a mystery unto myself. And I like it that way.

I agree here. As soon as you apply an identity label, you limit yourself to that label. That is how people will see you and interact with you. There are always rules for people who take on a particular label. Act outside the label and you get criticism and pushback. You're not really free to be anything else.

I consider myself a human being before I am anything else. Everything else is a subordinate trait or interest. Some persist and others grow, shrink, or disappear altogether, while other new traits/interests emerge. Autism is just a persistent trait and not "who I am."

 

[Neri]

I guess in many ways I'm identifying maybe too much with my diagnosis (irony, considering my last post on this thread), however, I know this is a phase. I do acknowledge that it's an autistic body that I'm inhabiting, and I am not my body, and yet my body is an integral part of who I am, until I take leave of this body.
That thing of not having very much of a sense of one's identity, I think, can be a common thing amongst those of us with this kind of phenotype, and then there are the amount of "ego dissolutions" that we can go through, and I'll post a video that explains, much better than I can, right now, below.

I have worked hard at developing more of a sense of self, as sometimes it can be handy to "know Thyself" and yet, I like to be aware that these "identities" are like outfits or parts of an outfit that I'm wearing at that time. Like I have a "mum" hat, a "musician" hat, a "singer" an "artist" hat, a "peer support" hat, a "philosopher" a "mystic" hat, a "writer" hat, a "survivor" hat, yes, even a "disabled person" hat, a "partner" hat, all the other family member hats, a non-conventional person hat, even an "intellectual" hat, I guess, the list goes on....I know it sounds like I have tickets on myself with some of those, but, I don't care. People are going to think of me what people are going to think of me, some of it positive and plenty of it negative too.

 

[IFTALES]

I don’t have identity.

What this means is that I cannot define myself within any cultural norms. My ego is almost non-functional.

Identity is the part of ego that connects us to tribe and group. It is a self categorization.

You know you don’t have identity when it is hard for you to say: “I am (insert something here)”. We all have to say “I am X”. If you don’t have identity, this is what I call “nominal identity”.

If you don’t have identity…. Do you have a “comorbidity” of autism and ADD? (Not a big fan of disorderology)

Here is my theory on it

1) Masking, Mimicking & Mirroring:
An ASD Default?

Predator/Prey Aspect: Predators/Prey in the wild employ camouflage to hide within their surroundings, enabling stealthy approaches to prey or avoidance of threats. Beyond mere physical concealment, predators also instinctively conceal weaknesses or injuries to prevent exploitation by competitors or predators. This sub-form of masking could be construed not as deception but as a form of 'information blindness,' where the lack of outward expression of vulnerability is due to a neurological block rather than a conscious choice. In the context of ASD, this might parallel the concept of alexithymia, where the difficulty in identifying and describing emotions may stem from a more ingrained, instinctual origin. Predators, and by extension, individuals with ASD, might therefore only express vulnerability or emotion within the safety of a trusted 'pack' or familiar 'den', aligning with the need for a secure environment to show weakness. When predator's leave their safe zone, they are in heightened threat state, masking and mirroring are in full swing, but this cannot be sustained neurochemically. So while their emotions are quite intense: this doesn't mean a person can a) show that emotion or b) access that emotion. c) feel safe to have that emotion in front of others. However a key part of this model is understanding the temporal aspect of ASD and the ability to flip modes of cognition. Mode 1) hide and show nothing, fit in, mirror, mask. Mode 2) - springing into action to attack or chase prey - a neurological flip to a massive emotional outburst and expense of energy, such as an ASD meltdown or in other extreme moments like sex or intimacy where all the pent up emotion comes out at once. It suggests that predators like to build up emotional energy over time and then let it all out at once - which resets the system. Does this mean that ASD people are programmed to have outbursts and what might be a solution to this is to simulate these experiences and use them to keep balanced?
Scientific Lens: In ASD, masking can be likened to the camouflaging behavior of predators or prey alike. It entails the conscious or unconscious adjustment of behavior to fit social norms. This process is not merely about hiding emotions but also about managing the expression of one's intrinsic traits in various social landscapes. It's also about pack hunting, play and learning by mirroring physically. Let's tie it together.

Alexithymia & Masking - different sides of the same coin?
The neurological underpinning of this could be linked to the mechanisms that govern alexithymia, which involves a difficulty in recognizing and processing one's own emotional state. The comparison with predators' behavior suggests that this might not simply be a deficit but an adaptive trait in certain contexts, allowing for a focused, undistracted presence in environments outside of one's 'territory'. However, as research suggests, this strategy, while it may be effective in the short term, can lead to long-term consequences such as increased stress, anxiety, and a disconnection from one's self-identity.

So in terms of my idea here - it means that masking is more than just making up for a loss in social abilities. It suggests an increase in the ability to physically mirror as a social mechanism, but as a cognitive tool to get that "prey object" and then return to a safe zone/ territory or pack. Masking also seems closely related to the mechanism predator's use to play and learn. (PLAY in this context is defined by Jaak Panksepp Affective Neuroscience.)

Pack Predator Identity & ASD Identity issues
How is identity formed among social animals? Is a predator or prey animals sense of identity formed as a pack mentality which is why individually they might not have a solid sense of self, since the self is formed by mirroring the pack - and less so on individual personal /emotional resonance?

So this kind of brain might end up defining identity based on either the mirror group or by their own interests, but less so based on emotional ties between the people in the group. This is more brittle in a sense because it means that we feel connected when we are in a group wearing the same "mask", but there is not much below that layer since we all are wearing masks. So as long as the group's interests align with the mask you wear and your own interests, all is well. However, losing that group or interest and the resultant identity will be profoundly affected.

Interests Over Emotional Ties: Defining oneself more by shared interests and activities - collectively "Prey Objects" rather than emotional connections, is a hallmark here in ASD. It can lead to very strong, but potentially very fragile social ties that depend on the continuation of those shared interests.

Imagine finding your place on a football team, and then that sort of dominates your reality for several years and then one day you can't play anymore. Do you stay friends with the team? or disconnect because you no longer can chase the same ball as them anymore? Do you feel like unless you can play ball, you aren't really on the team anymore? Would it trigger an identity crisis?

Proposal: Is masking normal and works great in a pack, but in a non-pack environment such as a concert or event, or work, where you aren't all on the same team - you aren't all wearing the same "mask" this method breaks down. So now the dynamic's radically change - instead of just mirroring the mask of your pack, you are having to choose every moment how to appear as a perfectly unique person to the rest of your group. In human society this is called personality. For a person who only knows how to mask and mirror - it's a boatload of predictive uncertainty and thus thermodynamically maladaptive to homeostasis (emotionally draining).

Masking as Instinctual:
Traditional views often consider masking as a learned behavior in response to social pressures. This proposal suggests it could be more instinctual, akin to predator behavior. This is an innovative perspective that isn't widely established in the current literature. I suggest that masking is a way to form a pack identity through social mirroring. I suggest that it can be maladaptive when a person has to operate as an individual, if they are genetically predisposed towards group identity. The distinction to make between masking within a familiar 'pack' and in diverse social settings is key. In a 'pack' environment, masking might be more straightforward and less energetically taxing, as it involves mirroring a known set of behaviors. In contrast, in diverse or individualistic settings, the cognitive load of constantly adjusting one's mask to fit unique social interactions could be much more challenging and draining.

 

[jsilver256]

I am new to ASD and this is a very helpful thread. I always thought that others were faking their connection to identity to some degree, but now I recall a recent Slack conversation from a group of my college friends living in California wherein they talked a group member out of buying a Ford truck because that person might be seen as a Republican. I thought that was very strange, Ford trucks are just trucks and they have their uses, but perhaps wearing the identity on the sleeve is an important aspect for many people.

 

[Chailatte_]

Disclaimer: the text doesn't follow a structured format, but it's a collection of reflections mixed together,they're disordered yet ordered at the same time and the text is quite reductive for such a broad topic that provides ample material for discussion.



Identity is not singular but rather a collection of multiple parts, divided into hypothetical levels and layers. These layers and levels communicate with each other, destroying and reassembling, yet they are not stable; they are mutable and fragile. Despite being seen as a source of strength, identity is our greatest weakness; everyone desires it, yet no one finds it, and everyone strives to demonstrate having it, even if they don't truly possess it. The search for identity is chaos and illusion.

I believe that identity is a taboo and incoherent concept. Everyone seems to desire and pursue it, but personally, I have never found anyone who truly possesses it. We only see groups of people where each “identifies” with the others just on a superficial level, providing a sense of identity.

From a personal and superficial perspective dictated by societal conventions, I identify with certain concepts like my assigned gender at birth. However, this categorization has been unjustly made superficial, and many have paid a high price due to this superficial approximation that defines gender. So, is gender truly superficial, or has it simply been presented in a superficial manner? From my perspective, the latter.

Socially and rationally, I do not identify with any group, and I have no interest in doing so. Perhaps it's due to resignation or self-preservation, as I fear being the "weak" element of a group that will end up being preyed upon (emotionally). I believe that a part of me, which I can't quite define (perhaps a primitive aspect working on my current emotions?), suffers and feels vulnerable in certain situations due to the lack of a "pack" to refer to and return to. That's why I imagine I joined this forum, hoping to find "myself in others" (which leads to a basic sense of belonging to create a part of your identity), and I'm fine with that. My emotionally neurodiverse part that felt the need for comparison now "has a pack composed of its own kind; I found myself in others, or at least some traits of myself" (it actually helped me a lot in fighting depression).

When I'm not behind a screen, in real life, in everyday life, rationally, I don't feel the need. I don't feel the need to force myself to fit into a neurotypical group. Is it awareness of my diversity and therefore disinterest in any kind of exchange, or perhaps it's a mechanism of adaptation due to my resignation? I couldn't say. I think I'm inconsistent, and I'm aware of it (and I repeat it too).

From a social standpoint, for convenience and classification of citizens, I have an identity card that identifies me on a concrete and physical level, attributing to me an artificial identity upon which human beings are based. This kind of identity is vague and only for the sake of convenience; it doesn't distinguish you from the rest of your country as an individual but distinguishes you from another country. If you stay in your country, you're just a number; if you go abroad, you're a tourist with a number from another country. This type of identity is relative to where you are, but it certainly doesn't provide a valid means to understand who you are or what you identify with (unless you are superficial, cowardly, and tend towards racism).

External identity is how other members of society identify us, such as social status, appearance (immigrant, way of dressing, features, etc.), and judgment depends on where you are, who is looking at you, and where that person comes from, among many other things. They may identify me in a certain way, but it doesn't mean that I truly identify with that.

Identity is also perception, and perception is abstract. It's difficult to discuss it properly; the rest becomes approximate.

There are too many identities, I believe, and that's why in the end we always end up saying "oh yes, I identify," but in the end, it doesn't truly define us. Maybe it's because we need to distinguish what identifies us from what defines us; maybe we need to stop being afraid and stop pursuing identity as a source of salvation.

Identity is also the perception of oneself and others, and it also plays a role in our self-esteem. It's a trap, a decoy, something we're told we must have but no one truly possesses. In the end, everyone becomes a homogeneous whole.

I believe there isn't a single identity but rather a collection. It's not something we identify with because we feel we belong to that group, but rather a mechanism of conservation or survival, very primal. Today, however, we don't risk being physically eaten by predators, but we risk being eaten by our own kind; we are the predators. It's a sort of perverse cannibalism that compels us to hurry and find our identity as soon as possible, at the cost of not even knowing if the group is correct or not. It's a bit like the game of musical chairs: whoever doesn't sit remains standing and without a chair. It's a pity it's just a game, but it's what happens: you don't even know what you're doing; you just know you have to sit if you don't want to remain standing while everyone else is sitting.

This "pattern" is visible even on a small scale, without having to look at an entire culture. Just look at the groups that form at a party, at work, or at school. Sometimes it seems that people "cease to exist," and only the group exists, preserved from both internal and external attacks.

Stereotyping and identification
Someone can perceive/identify you as X even if you're not X (you don't identify and perceive yourself as X). Yet despite this, if person C has identified you as X, you will pay the consequences of X, even though you don't recognize yourself as X. This is simply because person C has perceived you as X based on past experiences or because they view you through "generalized" eyes that base their judgment on social patterns and rumors.
Yet you pay the price!
In the world we find ourselves in today, I don't think it's possible to create our own personal identity because this process is subject to too many variables. I don't think identity is stable; in fact, I believe it's anything but stable as a "concept?" At the moment, it's even just impossible to think about an identity that doesn't harm others, let alone a personal identity (perhaps we will never have this at a deep level).
In my opinion, personal identity, as promoted by people, doesn't exist; it's part of the display case along with: "perfection and beauty."

Note: The original text has been translated from Italian, so some meanings may have been lost or there may be spelling/grammatical errors in the translation

 

[jsilver256]

Chailatte, may I ask if you are alexithymic? I agree with your post (very well thought out and written) but I am alexithymic and I am wondering if that is connected to not having a strong identity association.