I'm Still Learning...

[SnailPie]

He almost sounds as if he interprets any difference of opinion as personal criticism so is so busy constructing his own defense that he's unable to focus on and hear what you are saying. I wonder if you had a "discussion" with the ground rules that you couldn't talk only write your responses, if that would have any different result. Just a thought.

The writing idea is something we've discussed. I actually prefer writing when I'm overly emotional; it allows me time and space to say what I want to say clearly. He has said that he feels it's easy to "hide" behind written communication, and I agree, however in this case, it creates a bit more space to send+ receive clearly.

It's certainly worth a try! Maybe next time I have a problem, I'll send a memo.

 

[Mia]

On my side of the problem, I misunderstand him as well, often.
Mostly I misread his INTENT, not his words. I think I am looking for more underlying body language/intonation that supports his words, and that is sometimes missing.
For me I think it's just that he says and does things that--in my experience, mostly with NTs---usually MEAN a specific thing, and so I *assume* he does too.

That is the crux of the matter right there. You assume, as I used to, because of my low self-esteem (originally) that the intent is derogatory. It's usually not, it's more a matter of not knowing what the intent is, and ascribing certain machinations to it. You have to keep in mind something about Aspie men and women that's important, their intent is usually not malicious or cruel. If told or shown, that what they said or did caused you pain, they are often surprised and even shocked. I know my husband's is not. But it's taken me many years to learn and understand that. And that's not to say that all aspies are angels, and naive and honest and all are stereotypical, there are some with a history of neglect and abuse and trauma. Which needs to be considered.

Realize that I'm generalizing here, and my experiences within a relationship are individualistic. There seems a common theme to many relationships between aspie and aspie and aspie and non-aspie. Where the aspie male or female is considered the perpetrator of most of the difficulties. Have realized over the years that I'm just as responsible for the things that do transpire. That there is no higher ground really, only compromise.

 

[Bella Pines]

When I try to get him to understand what I need and how I feel, he essentially argues with me that my reasoning is wrong

Well this is not the case. We are all unanimous on this, your feelings are your own, you reasoning is yours and cannot possibly be wrong. It doesn't even make logical sense, it is what you feel, how can you be wrong about that!!

I think a regular person might have just thrown it out; it was old and dried up and of no use. Nothing fancy. Just an old pen.

I am then told that I need to "understand him" and he's busy doing work (which he often is, but does he have to keep doing it 18 hours a day?)

Oh he is definitely an aspie! I have precious pens too and when my children find them and say "mummy share", I have to smile through gritted teeth!

And actually he is lucky that his special interest corresponds to his job. Roughly what does he do? Computers? Do you have a special interest?

Of late he's starting to spend more and more time on the Internet, and coming to bed later and later. Now it's up to 2 AM and he's surfing Facebook.

I don't know if it's an ADHD thing or not, but I'm terrible at self-editing and really good at verbal diarrhea

No, I think it is just a long, complicated and fundamental problem.

So I see 2 problems.

The first and most immediate problem is that your relationship is now in a bit of a loop, having the same conversation over and over again. You try to communicate with him, he sees it as an attack, gets defensive and then attacks back, you withdraw, then repeat.

The second problem is still there beneath all the arguing, and that is that he is pulling away and becoming more distant.

I'm not in any way qualified to give advice, but have spent the last 20 years with my husband having similar "discussions". What works for us might not necessarily work for, but anyway. On the first problem, the argument loop, it helped us to have a rest from the topic and then return to it after a few weeks/months. We had one argument for 6 YEARS, I'm not kidding, it took us 6 years to sort it out. Basically I wanted time alone but he saw it as me wanting to get away from him. We went round and round, each argument more heated. It helped to actually stop talking about it for a while and then make slow but steady compromises over time. So maybe don't tackle the subject head on, leave it alone for a few weeks and then suggest you spend an hour together doing something you both enjoy?

On the second problem, his withdrawing, his special interests and his complete inability to acknowledge or understand you! It seems that the more you press, the worst it is getting. It also sounds like you have tried many things, you've talked to him, you've explained how you feel, you've offered compromise, but it hasn't solved the problem.

There's two things you haven't mentioned and may not have tried. Firstly, what is consuming him for 18 hours a day? Is it something that you can get interested in? (probably not!). Secondly, and this is something that no one has suggested yet (probably for good reason!), how about losing the argument? I don't mean by apologizing for how you feel and saying things like "I'll be fine, I'm okay with it" (when clearly you aren't), I mean actually losing the argument. Genuinely conceding. Allowing him to pull away, actually allowing him to disappear into his job all week and not come to bed until 3am. You've tried everything else, so if you try this, then he might come back to you.

You probably think you have done this, and have been patient, but you haven't really accepted his actions and his withdrawal. It's true that he is being illogical, he is not listening to you, he is not really making an effort to understand, but unfortunately only he can change this. You can't wake him up easily, it may be years before he starts to understand.

Now, in a neurotypical world, this would be ridiculous, why should you accept actions that hurt? Why would you accept this sort of behaviour? But he's not abusing you, he's just being typical aspie. He's not hitting you, he's just being a bit slow. And we are not neurotypicals

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

He's not hitting you, he's just being a bit slow. And we are not neurotypicals

Shame, I'm sure people are looking for an easy one to help with!

'He's hitting me'

'Leave'

Bliss

 

[SnailPie]

Well this is not the case. We are all unanimous on this, your feelings are your own, you reasoning is yours and cannot possibly be wrong. It doesn't even make logical sense, it is what you feel, how can you be wrong about that!!


Oh he is definitely an aspie! I have precious pens too and when my children find them and say "mummy share", I have to smile through gritted teeth!

And actually he is lucky that his special interest corresponds to his job. Roughly what does he do? Computers? Do you have a special interest?


Now, in a neurotypical world, this would be ridiculous, why should you accept actions that hurt? Why would you accept this sort of behaviour? But he's not abusing you, he's just being typical aspie. He's not hitting you, he's just being a bit slow. And we are not neurotypicals

Sorry---been busy all day yesterday and just now catching up...More to come later today! Thanks for all of your for your replies!

 

[SnailPie]

That is the crux of the matter right there. You assume, as I used to, because of my low self-esteem (originally) that the intent is derogatory. It's usually not, it's more a matter of not knowing what the intent is, and ascribing certain machinations to it. You have to keep in mind something about Aspie men and women that's important, their intent is usually not malicious or cruel. If told or shown, that what they said or did caused you pain, they are often surprised and even shocked. I know my husband's is not. But it's taken me many years to learn and understand that. And that's not to say that all aspies are angels, and naive and honest and all are stereotypical, there are some with a history of neglect and abuse and trauma. Which needs to be considered.

Realize that I'm generalizing here, and my experiences within a relationship are individualistic. There seems a common theme to many relationships between aspie and aspie and aspie and non-aspie. Where the aspie male or female is considered the perpetrator of most of the difficulties. Have realized over the years that I'm just as responsible for the things that do transpire. That there is no higher ground really, only compromise.

I absolutely agree that neither one of us has a malicious intent towards the other. We have spoken about this at length; that we love each other, but we CONSISTENTLY misunderstand the other's intent.
And because we've both been hurt so massively by those who went before, there are some serious emotional triggers in play on both sides.
One difference is that my self-esteem is pretty good, always has been, despite my difficulties. Real criticism stings, especially if it hits home, and I can obsess over it for months! But eventually I will internalize whatever it is, and if I need to, I use it as information to improve.

I think that's why I've coped pretty well, by listening to feedback and working really hard to be open to people's comments and complaints about me--IF I TRUST AND RESPECT THEM. It always stings though, as I think it would for anyone.

My AS beau struggles with very low self-esteem and as such I think he takes ANY feedback--even neutral/loving if it conflicts his his own ideas--as an attack. He has admitted that he gets defensive and angry when it's not called for. He's starting to realize this pattern. But a lot of it is up to me to make absolutely sure I present things to him in a calm, loving, supportive way so he doesn't get triggered.

It's a two way street, for sure.

 

[SnailPie]

Thanks, Bella Pines!

To answer a few questions, we are both musicians, and as such actually SHARE our special interest. (Ain't THAT special...!?!!?! )
However, he has some others that I have a peripheral interest in at best, and same on my end. We like to educate the other on our interests, but don't force them on each other.

So much of what you said made great sense. We are in a negative feedback loop; the more I push, the more he withdraws....there has been a lot of hurt all around. So I am doing my best now to just relax and not ask for anything, and let the consequences fall where they may.

His online time is directly related to his music/business/generating income/"RELAXING" on fb (as in, "watching silly cat videos, etc.") and so I do understand that he needs to be connected, but I also think that there needs to be some kind of cut-off time for "work" of any kind because my FEAR (important to note) is that this will escalate until he ignores me completely.

To his credit, he does not ignore me, just gets very VERY wrapped up in his "stuff" and I just get sort of taken for granted. My NT Ex actually DID completely ignore me, and no doubt this is part of the emotional trigger for me. Something I'm aware of and trying to work through.
Still working on all of it!

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

At a low point, i can perceive any question as a criticism or a problem.

Partly as i confuse the intent. Even simple stuff is annoying.

'Did you put the bins out yet?'

Yes.
No - further discourse necessary. I always put them out, why am i being asked about this (just making conversation,possibly)? Is there a meaning,intent im not getting?
Ill put them out now (annoyed) one possible outcome

Did you forget to put leave the chops out of the freezer?

?no i havent done it. Am imsupposed to do it now?

All simple examples for when low and tired. But all questions can have an effect if phrased like above. Some sort of action, i have to guess..

Ask me 'would you mind..... l doing this for me etc is way better for me.

Clear intent.

Obviously the 2 examples arent a problem normally. But every question can be,especially if i get a few in a row...

That kind of thing

 

[SnailPie]

At a low point, i can perceive any question as a criticism or a problem.

Partly as i confuse the intent. Even simple stuff is annoying.

'Did you put the bins out yet?'

Yes.
No - further discourse necessary. I always put them out, why am i being asked about this (just making conversation,possibly)? Is there a meaning,intent im not getting?
Ill put them out now (annoyed) one possible outcome

Did you forget to put leave the chops out of the freezer?

?no i havent done it. Am imsupposed to do it now?

All simple examples for when low and tired. But all questions can have an effect if phrased like above. Some sort of action, i have to guess..

Ask me 'would you mind..... l doing this for me etc is way better for me.

Clear intent.

Obviously the 2 examples arent a problem normally. But every question can be,especially if i get a few in a row...

That kind of thing

Thanks, Fridgemagnetman.

I don't think any of us like to be second-guessed or nagged about things, especially when we believe we're already "on top of it."
I do make every effort to approach my BF with extreme courtesy about such things; in fact, I often agonize for an hour or so about how best to broach something without setting off his "I'm being criticized" button.
For example, around here, the trash/recycling goes out 1-2 times per week. The trash bin can be overflowing, and he still won't take it out. He waits until the trash in the cans outside is overflowing before he'll load them in his vehicle to drive them down to the curbside for pickup (long driveway and they won't fit in my vehicle.)

I get frustrated with the situation because...I need to think here...Because the overflowing trash attracts animals at night outside, and inside it means I have no place to put new garbage. And if I'm being honest, it's because that, aside from washing dishes, it's about the only household chore he does. I do ALL the cleaning, washing the bedding, vacuuming, shopping, and cooking. (And taking out the trash/recycling, at least as far as I can do it.)
And I am FAR from a perfectionistic housekeeper. If I were, I never would have moved in here. But there's a limit to everything...

He does his own laundry and cleans up when I cook. If I don't cook, I often wash the dishes too.

The problem is with what I see as an unfair division of labor. And often, it seems, of "Emotional Labor" too. (But that's not an AS thing, it's just a man/woman thing, if I may generalize here. )
I do understand that I moved into his house and it was a certain way when I got here. (Messy, basically a workshop with a bed, and every surface was a worktable.) He rarely cleaned, although kept the kitchen/bath well, (both are not used much) except for when necessary. So I get that it's MY standard of living I am seemingly "imposing" upon him, when he's been just fine with how he did things before I came along.

So it almost seems unfair to ask him to put more energy into these things because I'm the only one who cares about dust/clean sheets/raccoons in the trash cans. On the other hand, living together means concessions and compromise have to happen. Right now I'd say that it's about 85% the way he'd like things, and 15% my way. Change is slow.

To his credit, he is adjusting, albeit slowly.

To that end, he just doesn't *SEE* what *Needs* to be done the way I do.

So I very politely say things like, "What do you think about loading up the trash tonight since tomorrow's trash day?" (I am willing to help, btw.) I'm sure that's transparent as hell to him, and he hears "Here she is, telling me once again how I falling short..."

I've even tried the "Thanks so much for taking out the trash. It's amazing how that one little thing makes it so much easier to function in the kitchen." Which comes off as patronizing.

Sorry---I'm rambling again!

The chores are really the least of our problems at the moment. I do wish he'd see/do more, but his focus is primarily on his work/interest/generating income (understandably) and frankly I think he'd let the whole house come down around his ears and not even notice it.

I did have to "nag" a bit to get him to spend a few hours identifying a leak in the roof, because the ceiling was starting to sag...he was annoyed with me, but we got it fixed in two hours and no more worries.

He just doesn't concern himself with issues until they're huge problems, which for me is problematic. I'd like to head off disasters before they become disasters!

Oh, and I should note that we are BOTH at "low" points, as you mentioned. Lots o stressors in every direction, stuff that would make any NT couple implode if they didn't have great coping strategies.

I believe, due to health/financial/career issues, his self-esteem is at an all time low at the moment. Not his fault, but I am aware he feels it acutely. I don't want to add to his misery.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

So I very politely say things like, "What do you think about loading up the trash tonight since tomorrow's trash day?" (I am willing to help, btw.) I'm sure that's transparent as hell to him, and he hears "Here she is, telling me once again how I falling short..."

Yep. Think a way round that one. Often my wife will start doing something and I will start helping.
But thats the kind of thing that sets me off.

You feel like its an unfair division of labour - does he feel territorial about you doing his jobs?
If you take the route of filling the trash yourself,silently... if that doesnt trigger him.

If it does, find a way to accept the way he does it.

Im feeling thats your problem to hold.

Sometimes the minor problems become major but if you resolve a few ones silently, all to the job.

Hey ive worked on it for years, so when i 'feel' it build mostly can handle it.
But if its several in a row.

Lying in bed : questions are verboten. Im trying to relax and bang : no did you forgets? Last thing at night, i hope.

Oh, and I should note that we are BOTH at "low" points, as you mentioned. Lots o stressors in every direction, stuff that would make any NT couple implode if they didn't have great coping strategies.

Pile it on, let it out

Kidding!

But i would, perhaps, write out your ordinary questions then maybe think
1. Can i hold onto this issue for mutual relationship benefit?
2. Can i rephrase these questions (ask for help here)

3. Spend some of his money now and then, he's working for it!

It has taken me a lot to kind of reprogram this 'question' thing. I still feel the heat now and then,get the wrong end of the stick.

Ive learnt to apologise to,mean it and i always tried like h*** not to argue.

But yeh,these things can be tough from all sides. Seems so simple and yet...

 

[SnailPie]

Yep. Think a way round that one. Often my wife will start doing something and I will start helping.
But thats the kind of thing that sets me off.

You feel like its an unfair division of labour - does he feel territorial about you doing his jobs?
If you take the route of filling the trash yourself,silently... if that doesnt trigger him.

If it does, find a way to accept the way he does it.

Im feeling thats your problem to hold.

Sometimes the minor problems become major but if you resolve a few ones silently, all to the job.

Hey ive worked on it for years, so when i 'feel' it build mostly can handle it.
But if its several in a row.

Lying in bed : questions are verboten. Im trying to relax and bang : no did you forgets? Last thing at night, i hope.




Pile it on, let it out

Kidding!

But i would, perhaps, write out your ordinary questions then maybe think
1. Can i hold onto this issue for mutual relationship benefit?
2. Can i rephrase these questions (ask for help here)

3. Spend some of his money now and then, he's working for it!

It has taken me a lot to kind of reprogram this 'question' thing. I still feel the heat now and then,get the wrong end of the stick.

Ive learnt to apologise to,mean it and i always tried like h*** not to argue.

But yeh,these things can be tough from all sides. Seems so simple and yet...

Thanks for your input.

Yeah...it is sort of my problem "to hold" as you said. I can let things go...and go....and go.... I don't know for sure that he'll step up if I bow out from doing more than my share of labor, but I'd assume at some point it would be untenable for him as well.
After all, he's lived here for 25 years or so. I can just sort of put it aside by thinking "It's not my house. I shouldn't care if it's messy/disorganized".
Except that I'm paying for my half, as it were. That gives me some rights, I should think---no?

And yes, when he sees me taking out the trash---not that we have ever decided it's "his" job or "mine"---even if I don't say a word, or if I do say something like, "Don't worry about it, Love, I know you're busy, just thought I'd get this out of the way..." I can FEEL/SEE the upset on his face.
But I'm just trying to function here.

I do have a rule for myself where I don't like to discuss anything "unpleasant" after 8-9 PM or so. The anxiety produced from evening discussions of the difficult aspects of our life currently really disrupt my sleep. (Not him, he sleeps like a log, the dear man. He feels the stress when awake. I get the backlash in the form of insomnia, nightmares, and mid-sleep anxiety attacks.)

I try really hard NOT to ever come off like I'm "nagging" or "complaining". Unfortunately, calling ANY attention to such things at all gets misinterpreted as a criticism. (No surprise! )

I'm really pretty relaxed about the environment and honestly can't believe that most women--especially an NT--would want to live the way we do. I'm already rolling amicably along with a lot of his ways of doing things, trying hard to be respectful and not disruptive. But I'm my own person, not just a place-holder who can pretzel myself into a little space here with no needs of my own...

That said, you make a good point. If I come straight out and ASK him for his help, he is more than happy to give it if he can. He is a good and loving man and wants me to be happy.
I guess I keep thinking that I shouldn't have to "ask" for the same things over and over again.


At some point, will he not be able to generalize to the extent that he KNOWS that x,y,z is part of what he needs to do routinely to uphold his 100% of the relationship to match my 100%?

As I continue to write here on the forums, I am becoming more and more aware that there are many problematic aspects to our relationship. It's not just the miscommunication, or the arguing, it's a fundamental disconnect as to how we see the world and our place in it. It makes me worry for our future.
Loving each other is a given. But living together and making a shared life together is something much more difficult.

Doing the latter means we BOTH must bend--often a great deal--in order to respect and work with our partner. Unfortunately, when I pipe up about my concerns, they are often shot down as not being "real".

 

[SnailPie]

Just an update:

I backed WAY off with my requests and there has been no arguing; we're getting along well.

I am having to work through my feelings of being somewhat neglected, but I'm trying to notice all of the sweet, caring things he does for me, and there are more than a few of those!

For example, he just offered to "Do Christmas" with me this year, with goofy stockings for the dogs, a tree, eggnog, and all the traditional things I enjoy, even though I know he couldn't be less interested in all that stuff. ("Bah-Humbug!" could be his catch-phrase this time of year!)
So that was REALLY caring and loving of him, because he knows how hard a time I am having of it now that I've lost my home/belongings (long story).
His offer meant a lot and was not prompted by me at all.

Overall, I can see that his take on things is very different from mine.
I think one of the points of disconnect is that there are some "Relationship Basics", if you will, that I believe are part and parcel of a romantic relationship. Just baseline behaviors that we "should" do for each other.
He doesn't have any such notions, and that's where we get into trouble.
Of course his viewpoint is as valid as my own, it's just that it's way out of line with my expectations.

I believe partners should do roughly equal amounts of emotional/physical labor in the union, each working within their own area of strength/expertise and leaning on the other in areas of weakness.
Chores, taking care of self and other, (body and mind), being a pleasant and accessible companion who maintains some level of hygiene/attractiveness to their mate, these are all important efforts in my opinion. Being financially responsible, and taking care of their own issues so it doesn't cause more strain on the relationship--these are things which in my mind "should" be part of any healthy adult relationship.

Basically, anything either wants to do is fine, as long as it causes no harm to the relationship/other person. (And not just "harm" in their mind, (as in feeling jealous for no reason but an imaginary one), but long-term actual harm, or creating ill-will and distancing in the other.

To me, if one person needs extra help, the other gives it, and when the tables are turned, each does for the other. If one is ill, the other finds out what they need and does the extra "labor" to assist them. If one needs a compassionate ear to hear them out about a problem they're having, the other one is there for them.

Resources--whether financial/emotional/physical/mental--are shared as needed. It's the partnership that takes precedence over selfish pursuits.

Of course, self care is important, and that to me doesn't count as "selfish".
So sleeping/eating/free time/care of body/mind are equally important.

However, if the needs for the self overpower the needs of the relationship/partner, then it's time for some sort of compromise.

I guess that's where we stand now.

I do believe he's doing the best he can. At some point, I'm sure the same issues will crop up again because they have not been resolved, but hopefully if things have calmed down, he will not be as defensive when we need to discuss things.

Meanwhile, I am "picking my battles", as they say.

 

[Bella Pines]

I also think that there needs to be some kind of cut-off time for "work" of any kind because my FEAR (important to note) is that this will escalate until he ignores me completely.

One of your special interests overlap? I've never met anyone I can share special interests with, that is beyond awesome!

He probably will go through phases of ignoring you and the rest of the world completely. But not like your ex, this is different. But as you know, the intensity peaks and troughs. I'll work on something day and night for a month, burn out and surface back into the real world for a while.

I used to do this a lot, I'd try to lock myself away to focus on whatever project had caught my attention. My husband eventually helped me find a bit of balance, so I do (mostly) join the family for dinner and I do (sometimes) spend time with them Maybe in time, you can help him find a better balance and conduct a healthy relationship, maybe then he will actually understand what you are trying to say.

It doesn't sound like a quick fix, but it does sound like it is worth the effort.

 

[SnailPie]

One of your special interests overlap? I've never met anyone I can share special interests with, that is beyond awesome!

He probably will go through phases of ignoring you and the rest of the world completely. But not like your ex, this is different. But as you know, the intensity peaks and troughs. I'll work on something day and night for a month, burn out and surface back into the real world for a while.

I used to do this a lot, I'd try to lock myself away to focus on whatever project had caught my attention. My husband eventually helped me find a bit of balance, so I do (mostly) join the family for dinner and I do (sometimes) spend time with them Maybe in time, you can help him find a better balance and conduct a healthy relationship, maybe then he will actually understand what you are trying to say.

It doesn't sound like a quick fix, but it does sound like it is worth the effort.

Thanks, Bella Pines,

I'm sure you're correct about the cycling around. I used to be a lot more that way myself!

And...Yeah, we are lucky that way to have shared special interests. I think that's how we got so connected in the beginning. And our knowledge of the subject(s) dovetails nicely; mine is earlier in history and his picks up and continues into later decades where mine tapers off. So together we have a grand scope.

I do understand that for him, it "Goes in cycles". He's even said so. But it is hard just hanging back and not getting nervous about what it might portend. My marriage was very long and became extremely lonely over 25 years. I see some of the same red flags, but as you said, probably for different reasons.
I am trying to be patient, but my life is so stressful these days that I am often in tears of frustration for events that have nothing to do with my Beloved.
I was NEVER a crier---these days it seems I am just very needy.
I know it's a lot to ask of him.

Without going into too much detail, I made a list of all the stressful life changes that I've gone through over the last few years, and I've pretty much hit every single one that any one person can have.

Multiple deaths, (immediate family and friends, not to mention pets), betrayal, divorce, loss of home, destruction of my belongings by fire, health issues, caring for aging parent, loss of relationships, loss of career, identity, beloved farm and animals...land, sense of meaning and purpose, circle of friends, community, financial devastation, shattered dreams....it's almost a cruel joke.

Meeting my sweetheart was one great thing that happened, and lots of positive changes associated with that, but it also comes with its own boatload of problems which are no one's fault. But it does leave me pretty much a blubbering pile of jelly when I have so much work yet to do to recover, and really no one who can help me but myself.

I'm just "needy" in a way I've never been before, and although I know he's trying hard, it's just more than he can handle. If he had met me several years ago when I was on the upswing, I'm sure we'd be getting along great. So in a way, a lot of this is really MY problem.

Sorry--I sound like I'm whining. Today was a rough day that way. Thanks for your response.

 

[SnailPie]

Well, as promised, I'm checking back in with my "Post-Christmas Report".

Things are about the same, with approximately one emotional blow up per week with my Aspie fella.
It got really bad on two occasions, where we were ready to call it quits. I was...FURIOUS with him for continuing to argue his rightness and point of view when I was in tears over something he'd done.

He, in turn, was furious with me for continuing to "make an issue" out of something HE didn't understand to be important or relevant. We continue to get along fine, outwardly that is, if I just stuff my feelings and expect very little from him. In other words, HE is "fine" and I am unhappy about 50% of the time.

I am at my wit's end trying to get him to understand that my feelings and reactions to things he says/does/doesn't do are REAL and absolute RELATIONSHIP KILLERS, and that the worst thing he can do when I try to point how he is affecting me, is try to "debate me" out of having any important point of view at all.

I have never experienced this with anyone, ever. It is crazy-making behavior.

It's like someone kicking you--accidentally or purposefully, it doesn't matter---and you say "Ouch! That hurt! Please don't kick me anymore."
And they say: "YOU're just as bad for making ME feel guilty that I kicked you", as if it's bad manners on your part to point out that they kicked you!
They then proceed to argue this point of view ad nauseum.

Or some variation of "I didn't mean it so it shouldn't hurt" or "I wasn't paying attention" or some other excuse.
The point is--acknowledge that you hurt your partner, apologize, and try not to do it again in the future. Is that so difficult?

I have tried to explain this to him over 100 times. I have told him he's driving me away with his constant debating of my concerns. MY CONCERNS ARE NOT OPEN TO DEBATE!!! They can be discussed, compromised upon, worked through. But they can not be dismissed simply because HE doesn't agree with them!!!

He'll just say "What, am I supposed to just blindly agree with everything you say? Just say, Yes ma'am, yes ma'am to everything???!!!?"
Why can't I get him to understand that he doesn't have to AGREE with me, he just has to hear me out, and try to understand what I'm saying without getting super-defensive, argumentative, and angry.

We actually got into an argument the other day over which came first, the chicken or the egg. I am not kidding. We seriously had a FIGHT over that, because he would not accept that I had a valid point. (The egg came first. Ask me how I know.)

That's what it's like. He dismisses my concerns unless I can debate them point by point and then HE will decide whether or not they hold water. It's like every point I try to make about my feelings is shot down like a series of clay pigeons. (I know, I know, I'm mixing my metaphors again.) I am his partner, not his pupil or his child.

I've told him this--the clay pigeon thing. That his goal seems to be to eliminate any validity of my concerns whatsoever.

And if he CAN'T do that, he gets intensely angry. Shaking with anger, in fact. The fact that I bring up anything that he might be doing that's hurtful really pisses him off. He hears nasty criticism, when all I'm essentially saying is "Please don't kick me. It hurts when you do that."

For example, the other day we were cleaning and organizing the kitchen.
He wanted my help, but was mostly doing it on his own because it was HIS STUFF that was causing the chaos. (Please note: Completely unprompted by me, he was doing it because he knew it was something I'd needed done for a long time and I was very appreciative of his efforts all day!)
This was unplanned, an activity I'd had no warning about, nor interest in, since it was Christmas Day and I had a whole different idea in mind for the day. But no matter, I decided to go with his flow. (It's easier and he was doing it to make my life easier.)
So I was on 'stand by' all day, waiting for him to require my assistance. I asked many times if he needed me, etc. always told "not right now."
My whole day was spent WAITING nearby. I could have been doing other things.

Okay...so at one point he takes a break for coffee, and I was there in the kitchen with him, I picked up a scrub brush and cleanser and started cleaning a small portion of the floor to see if a stain would come off.

I'm talking about five minutes total here, while he was having coffee.
I made it clear I was "only" cleaning a small portion of the floor to see if the stain would come up. He said something like "Do you have to do that NOW???" and I said "I'm almost done" and finished up within a minute or two, plenty of time for him to finish his coffee. Maybe he had to wait 45 seconds for me to stand up and move out of his way!

So, now a few hours later, he's being short with me, and curt. I didn't know what was going on. Somehow, this had turned into him being very annoyed at me for "just putting myself in there" while "he was working" and he was crabby for a few hours afterward.
I had no idea why he was acting that way, and so I asked him if he was upset with me or something.
First he said..."No." (Was obviously YES!) I said, "That didn't really SOUND like a 'no'."

He finally said "Okay, Yes. I'm annoyed at you for what you did earlier."
"Why? What did I do?" I asked.
I didn't know what he was talking about! When he explained this horrible thing I'd done, I was shocked. You'd think I'd gone in there, knocked all his things over, shoved him out of the way, told him he didn't know what he was doing, and ripped the tools out of his hand!!!!

He got really snippy with me, insisted I'd done this "getting in his way" deliberately (WTF????!!??) and stuck to his guns. He insisted I had done "IT" on purpose. I explained my frame of mind, that he was taking a break, it was just a test of the stain, just five minutes, I'd done nothing wrong.
I explained that I'd waited around all day just so I was available in case he needed help. That I was only trying to do a bit of my share. That I was acting out of love and a desire to be of service. All this was lost on him because he "KNEW" that my goal had been to disrupt his work or something. I have no idea where that thinking comes from!

I asked him to apologize for A: Assuming I was some nasty creature who was doing something awful to him. B. Getting snippy and irritated with me to the point that it was ruining our evening.
He in turn, asked me to apologize for having the gall to walk into our kitchen, (and without asking his PERMISSION, I guess), clean a 4 x 4 inch square on the floor for five minutes while he was doing nothing but drinking coffee and watching me.

Somebody, please explain this to me. I have Asperger's myself, but I just don't get this type of behavior at all!!!


Finally, he DID apologize. I honestly refused to apologize for the 'crime' of taking a small initiative in my own house. I said his feelings about being intruded upon were his own to manage, that I had done NOTHING wrong, but that he was wrong for being snippy with me for two hours afterward.

(I must point out that I constantly walk on eggshells around him, apologize often, and stuff my feelings. This time I was definitely not in the wrong I wasn't going to let him walk all over me as he usually does.)

He could have asked me to stop cleaning, or just given me five minutes, or owned up to the fact that it was his own tiredness/overload/hunger/crankiness that made him snippy, instead of my five minutes of cleaning.

I am a human being, not a broom that he can stand in the corner waiting until such time that I am needed.

Okay, rant over.

*sigh*

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

He wanted my help, but was mostly doing it on his own because it was HIS STUFF that was causing the chaos. (Please note: Completely unprompted by me, he was doing it because he knew it was something I'd needed done for a long time and I was very appreciative of his efforts all day!)
This was unplanned, an activity I'd had no warning about, nor interest in, since it was Christmas Day and I had a whole different idea in mind for the day. But no matter, I decided to go with his flow. (It's easier and he was doing it to make my life easier.)
So I was on 'stand by' all day, waiting for him to require my assistance. I asked many times if he needed me, etc. always told "not right now."
My whole day was spent WAITING nearby. I could have been doing other things

How do you know he wanted ypur help?
One idea is for you to respond differently.

Do you want my help?

Not right now.

Okay. Im going off to do this now.

I get it - xmas day - normal rules don't apply.

But the rest of the cleaning experience - yes you've developed a complex dynamic there.
It has to be really wearing, for you.
Just cleaning a room, i hope someone else has some good ideas for you.

asked him to apologize for A: Assuming I was some nasty creature who was doing something awful to him

Apology B, yes. This doesnt ring for me a d is an escalting comment. I think I can see some of tne problems he has, For me A would escalate, B would help.

What does he do if you

A) ask him to stop hurting you? (In the now moment as its happening)
B) ask him for his help?

 

[SnailPie]

Please read down through the quote since I don't seem to know how to do this!

How do you know he wanted ypur help?
One idea is for you to respond differently.

Do you want my help?

Not right now.

Okay. Im going off to do this now.
Actually, at the start of the day he'd said "I could use your help." And me, as usual, said "I'm here whenever, however you need me." He has health issues and his stamina for physical labor is limited. It's something we work around, and must communicate about. But yes, he HAD asked for my help--as needed, throughout the day. And I was happy to give it.

I get it - xmas day - normal rules don't apply.
Yeah. Like him deciding, without discussion, that TODAY was THE day we were going to tackle the kitchen nightmare. Okay then!

But the rest of the cleaning experience - yes you've developed a complex dynamic there.
It has to be really wearing, for you.
It is.
Just cleaning a room, i hope someone else has some good ideas for you.



Apology B, yes. This doesnt ring for me a d is an escalting comment. I think I can see some of tne problems he has, For me A would escalate, B would help.
The problem with the "A" apology is that he often interprets my benign, or even positive interactions as some sort of aggressive, antagonistic move on my part.

He reads in a very negative intent on my part which is simply NOT THERE. I love the man and would do just about anything for him. For him to frequently interpret my loving actions as some kind of assault is something I cannot fathom.
We have talked about this, where it's coming from.
He gets so easily offended--by someone using the wrong words, or not saying "please" all the time.
(As in someone saying "Call me!" He finds that offensive, and his response is f. you! I try and explain that it's part of the American Lexicon. Not offensive, not weird.. but he "disagrees". As he does with so many things.)
What does he do if you

A) ask him to stop hurting you? (In the now moment as its happening)

He tells me I shouldn't feel that way, that I'm starting to cause problems where there aren't any, that I've got it all wrong and my "reasons" for feeling that way are "wrong".
B) ask him for his help?

He responds better to me asking for his help. Unless that means, the "help" I'm after is him looking at what he is doing and taking some responsibility for the negative outcome. It's far easier to blame me for being too "demanding" than it is to adapt some of his behaviors to actually being in a relationship, apparently.

 

[SnailPie]

Thank you for your reply, FridgeMagnetMan!

 

[SnailPie]

Hey All, here's an update:

I realize my last couple of posts were somewhat negative, and that's because we'd just had a dust-up and my frustration level was very high.
Since I have calmed down, I wanted to add that my Beloved has taken some real steps to work things out with me and I am optimistic that maybe some changes will occur.
1. He offered to celebrate Christmas with me, got me PRESENTS, wrapped them, put them under the tree and everything. (He is NOT into holidays/celebrations, that sort of thing, but he did it for ME because he knew it was important to me.)
2. He's asked me to write a list of things I need/want from him, like "Dos and Don'ts" I haven't finished it yet, but the fact that he's even asking for such a thing from me gives me hope.
3. He comes out to help me carry in the shopping, puts things away, and has started doing small jobs around the house. This is a big step since he's used to being alone and not caring about the state of things.

I know he loves me, and I certainly do love him. He is frustrating a lot of the time, but I can see so many ways where he's trying his best. He doesn't understand what he doesn't understand. What is painful for me to bear sometimes is really and truly NOT HIS FAULT.

I am hopeful for a better 2018!

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

He's asked me to write a list of things I need/want from him, like "Dos and Don'ts" I haven't finished it yet, but the fact that he's even asking for such a thing from me gives me hope

Try not to make the list too long

Hope it works out for you, ypu both seem to be moving in a positive direction.