Calling all Neurotypicals (and others): Could we use this here?

[Grumpy Cat]

I personally find it helps me relate to other members if I know a little about them, say gender, age and location.. it makes people a little less faceless in a way, I suppose, so I agree in principal.. But I do agree with what gonz said above, it may be a little tempting for some to use an NT/ND or Official diag/Self diag label or whatever, for target practice, despite most of us being on our best behavior most of the time.. it still doesn't necessarily alleviate hurt feelings after the fact and, like yourself Angie, I'm also sad that Adam's taken a backseat, I really enjoyed his posts.. don't you go disappearing next now
On the other hand, we could just short circuit all that and have ND labels in a nice, restful green and NT labels in red-for-danger

What is ND? And I'm too grumpy to go anywhere.

 

[Harrison]

What is ND? And I'm too grumpy to go anywhere.

Neurodiverse, us. Well not you my lovely nurse, you'd be neurotypical

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

Would you mind expounding on your reservations?

I am hoping a dedicated section could become such an inducement. As it stands, NT enquiries are spread across several forums. This seems inefficient to me, and I feel we're losing an opportunity to enhance the effectiveness of our site as a resource.

Yep--I didn't think of it this way until you wrote that. That's actually what I'm reacting to. It's been feeling to me as if I keep tripping over the same questions over and over, regardless of the forum's topic--and further, as if strangers just sign up, log in, and complain at length about people who act just like us, as if I'd help a stranger bash a stranger...in public. It isn't right. (In the world according to me.)

AdamR, my partner, withdrew due to hostility from a small clutch of hostile members. He's naturally scrappy and highly defencive of his mate [I've come under attack a couple of times], so he backed off rather than cause trouble for me or the atmosphere here. He did post a bit recently, but I don't see him returning very seriously, despite the fact that the handful of members in question seem to have gone now.

I'm sorry this happened. I've really enjoyed his posts when I found them. One of them in particular was really helpful since I happened to read it at a good moment.

Point 1. I have discussed this with Slithytoves, a member here who has a great deal of experience running forums. She makes a good point, that it's impossible to properly explore the phenomenon, for the very fact that it's about non-response. She did say some forums send out exit questionnaires to people who quit, but the response rate is poor and most people don't bother to delete accounts upon leaving anyway. It's also possible that some lurkers are Aspies who don't want to socialise, as it's not their nature, but do wish to read as a way of feeling connected to the community, to the extent that they feel able. I guess we'll never know.

Yeah. That was my experience also. I spent three years running a market research program and one as a mod in private life, and I couldn't crack that nut either. It's an itch I can't scratch.

Point 2. This is what I'm trying to address with a separate forum. It's likely that most of these people may turn up in a moment of distress, just to vent and gather just a bit of feedback while the incident is hot. In that case, we might give them reason to stay if they saw they could have the support of other NTs in similar relationships/situations. That potential isn't evident just now.

You know, I'd've expected to notice that myself, and I didn't. I need to make a new rule for myself: refuse the bait when strangers post to vent. (Ie, don't comment, leave at once.) I read those threads as demands for fixes to the person they're complaining about, and again to the demand that someone fix the defective party. Hits too many nerves (deathcake strikes again!). I thought avoiding a thread if I was feeling badly was working just fine. Never occurred to me that I changed states while reading venting posts from strangers.

Point 3. I considered a new section as a way to reduce repetition, consolidating attention on existing threads, which might create more depth. Whether it would work or not is a question.

That sounds good to me. Resolves points 1 and 2 issues as I see them, FWIW.

Point 4. The AdamRs and Grumpy Cats aren't currently visible enough for like to attract like, unfortunately. Those two are a rare breed, anyway, interested in being part of our community rather than simply consulting with it. I'm not sure many NTs would want to do what they do here, unless they found a reason to stick around long enough to see us all as people they might like to know better.

<sighs agreement> Eagles don't flock, we collect them one by one. But, yeah, that's probably the reality of life I should just accept.

Your observations are fantastic, A4H. I've only become aware of you just recently, but I must say, I'm delighted to know you!

You're very kind. thank you.

I'm not suggesting Brent doesn't care about the site. Not at all. I'm just curious how much of an investment of time and energy he finds reasonable on his end, as a businessman.

No, indeed, that's not I how read this at all! Some of my projects let me play with the valuation of intangible assets, which starts with defining variables. Then figuring out how to quantify the variables. Then whether the variables suggest meeting profit threshholds or program goals. Right now, for instance, I'm trying to put together an algorithm for how an employee can prove they return more than they cost...which should insure them against a layoff and help them negotiate for merit raises. This is part of what I call "fun" (ducks behind desk to avoid rotten tomatoes).

It occurs to me that one instrument which might be helpful is a poll or survey of members who have stuck around, to find out why they did, what they like about AC, and what they feel needs improvement. [Just trying to think of how we could use the active members to hypothesise why we don't have more.]

Engagement metrics are challenging. I think the forum on Site Suggestions and Feedback does serve that purpose, kind of. The problem with using that as the sole metric is it's strongly biased to people who want change and are willing and able to not only define what they want, but to write it and post it publicly.

...

I am a scientist, though, so research is always appealing. And I'm a member who cares very much about AC, so I'd like to see it be the best site it can.

Oooh, science!

thank you, again, for thoughtful reply.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Rule number one for everyone here should be not to make things personal, or take things personally.

It's a little hard not to take things personally when "NT" is in a negative sentence.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Neurodiverse, us. Well not you my lovely nurse, you'd be neurotypical

I'd like to think of me as more "neurountypical" or "neurounique".

 

[Nadador]

It's a little hard not to take things personally when "NT" is in a negative sentence.

Consider that we Aspies have to check ourselves on AC all of the time, as NTs drop in to vent about problems with an Aspie mate, friend, or family member. Not to mention how often we have to hold our tongues in regular life. I'm not trying to diminish your feelings by offering a parallel, but it's true to say nobody here has a corner on the "occasionally offended" market, so it's important that we realise that sometimes keeping mum and letting things roll off is the best approach when someone rubs us the wrong way. At the very least, we should all be very careful in what we say, avoiding knee-jerk, emotionally-driven responses. It's also true to say that using restraint should be easier for an NT, if you put much stock in the clinical description of Asperger's. Remember, many of us don't have very good filters, and some of us have troubles with impulse control.

I don't mean to play "us and them" with you, my girl. You know I like you. I'm just taking the opportunity to present some food for thought.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Consider that we Aspies have to check ourselves on AC all of the time, as NTs drop in to vent about problems with an Aspie mate, friend, or family member. Not to mention how often we have to hold our tongues in regular life. I'm not trying to diminish your feelings by offering a parallel, but it's true to say nobody here has a corner on the "occasionally offended" market, so it's important that we realise that sometimes keeping mum and letting things roll off is the best approach when someone rubs us the wrong way. At the very least, we should all be very careful in what we say, avoiding knee-jerk, emotionally-driven responses. It's also true to say that using restraint should be easier for an NT, if you put much stock in the clinical description of Asperger's. Remember, many of us don't have very good filters, and some of us have troubles with impulse control.

I don't mean to play "us and them" with you, my girl. You know I like you. I'm just taking the opportunity to present some food for thought.

I get what you're saying and that's why I try not to be rude. It just makes me wonder if most Aspie's got bullied in life and don't appreciate it, then why are some doing that same thing to an NT on this forum who is here because they like being around Aspies?

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Consider that we Aspies have to check ourselves on AC all of the time, as NTs drop in to vent about problems with an Aspie mate, friend, or family member. Not to mention how often we have to hold our tongues in regular life. I'm not trying to diminish your feelings by offering a parallel, but it's true to say nobody here has a corner on the "occasionally offended" market, so it's important that we realise that sometimes keeping mum and letting things roll off is the best approach when someone rubs us the wrong way. At the very least, we should all be very careful in what we say, avoiding knee-jerk, emotionally-driven responses. It's also true to say that using restraint should be easier for an NT, if you put much stock in the clinical description of Asperger's. Remember, many of us don't have very good filters, and some of us have troubles with impulse control.

I don't mean to play "us and them" with you, my girl. You know I like you. I'm just taking the opportunity to present some food for thought.

And it must have really bothered me cause I can still remember the 3 Aspies that did it. And two of them ganged up on me at once in the same thread. I know I keep going on about it, but the Aspies who have been bullied can understand, I'm sure - you don't forget that kind of thing. One even left the site entirely saying it was because of me. That was the time I honestly thought about leaving. If it wasn't for other Aspies saying I conducted myself appropriately, I probably would have been gone. That statement made me feel bad because I don't want any Aspie leaving their own community because of me, an NT. And when you say something back, it's just like what you said - you have to walk a fine line with what you say because this is Aspieville and NT's are the minority. You have to find a way to stand up for yourself, but also be respectful of what you say. I just had to get that off of my chest.

 

[royinpink]

New subforum: Ask an Aspie!
Sticky Thread: FAQ

Or so how it breaks down in my head.

I like this. Simple and no-nonsense. Cute subforum title, as well.

 

[Emmett]

Bridges, yes! I wish to be a part of building them. NTs need our patience, our kindness as they try to understand us. Our groovy neurology is as an entirely different operating system. We can be as baffling to read to NTs as they can be to us. Partners, parents, friends, therapists all need our understanding and compassion. This is a relatively easy way for us to communicate, compared to face to face. Helping each other be understood is a wonderful cause. Sign me up for a positive forum section as this!

Would this potentially isolate NTs even more than they already are? People these days are so busy that it's hard to spend a lot of time on things that don't demand our attention. Further, it's entirely possible that NTs are reading, but not posting. I figure that the more that I read, the better I will understand this issue.

 

[Emmett]

I've noticed that NTs often get unnecessarily harsh, sometimes outright hostile, responses when asking questions here. And the people responding in that way usually defend it by saying that they feel as though the only space where they feel comfortable is being invaded.

A section like what is being described could help. The aspies who'd rather not deal with NT questions and concerns can more easily avoid them.

And since a greater percentage of the responses to those questions would be coming from people who are actually interested in helping, rather than getting angry at the person posting them, the NTs who come here might feel more welcome and more willing to stick around and keep learning rather than leaving as soon as their original issue is resolved.

Remember that if you drive away an NT person because he or she is ignorant or clueless, you're losing an opportunity to educate, illuminate and attract another person to your side.

 

[royinpink]

People these days are so busy that it's hard to spend a lot of time on things that don't demand our attention.

Yeah, this would be my concern, that most NTs don't stick around because, well, it is the aspies who get obsessive over their interests, and it is the aspies who need a supportive community for like-minded folks. Even though NTs may have loved ones on the spectrum, my experience has been that they would rather 'get on with life' than spend so much time just learning and gaining information about something that they don't have to deal with every waking moment. They may feel it's enough for the aspies in their lives to educate them personally until that breaks down. And that makes sense from their perspective, even if we might wish that NTs would more often see the value for their NT-ND relationships of taking a long-term, multi-perspective approach toward education and understanding--the value of having a community.

However, there are exceptions, and that should be encouraged. Bridge-building, as Warmheart says. Btw, glad to see you are getting involved, yourself, and giving input from the NT perspective. It is appreciated!

 

[royinpink]

Would this potentially isolate NTs even more than they already are?

I don't think so, as all the NTs could give feedback to each other as well as hearing from the ND members on the site! It would help build their own sense of community instead of being a loner in a sea of aspies (which, while educational in its reversal from typical experience, is not exactly fun, as we should know all too well). They're still welcome in other areas of the site, of course, it would just be a topical section for NT-ND relationships.

I guess you're asking whether this would mean further NT/ND segregation...frankly, it is already a fairly ND-dominated community. The effort to make it less so is on individual members to reach out, at this point, and would continue to be so. This would be a specific area that promotes engagement between aspies and NTs, so it would seem to give space and support for that rather than isolating NTs. Maybe it could be better, but I'm not sure how.

ETA: I think it's worth remembering that for most minority groups, it's valuable to have a space where they are only with other members of that group so they can speak openly and without feeling threatened. We have this for women's groups, racial minorities on college campuses, etc. I don't see why we shouldn't have it for aspies, as many of us share a feeling of alienation, if not experiences of bullying, misunderstanding, etc. that have left scars. The resulting resentment directed at NTs who were not involved may not be right or fair, but it needs to be worked through. I think some of the aforementioned groups have an open membership policy (i.e. men could join the women's group) but restrict certain meetings to the members the group was created to serve (e.g. a meeting to discuss experiences of sexual abuse would be women-only). I don't know if we need something like that?

 

[AsheSkyler]

I get what you're saying and that's why I try not to be rude. It just makes me wonder if most Aspie's got bullied in life and don't appreciate it, then why are some doing that same thing to an NT on this forum who is here because they like being around Aspies?

They are a "safe" thing to vent their frustrations on. Those visiting allistics don't present a threat because they're friendly, but simply being allistic is a reminder of bad memories, and it triggers a bad reaction. One reason people are more prone to kick a lazy yard dog and avoid a junkyard dog like the plague. The junk yard dog is not only more likely to bite you, they are also more like to do a pretty good job of it. The yard dog will probably just give you the puppy eyes or tuck tail and scoot under a bush.

Not that I'm justifying bullying people or critters. Just me being a keyboard therapist again.

 

[Slithytoves]

I think this is a great idea. To my knowledge, there is no broad support community for partners, family and friends of Aspies and HFAs, so giving that crew a little corner of their own could be beneficial to all concerned.

I don't see having a separate sub-forum as a form of segregation. NTs would still be free to post anywhere they wish on AC, and NDs would still be welcome, perhaps even needed, on NT-focused threads. When I joined here, I was actually surprised that there wasn't already a sub-forum like the one Nadador is suggesting. And I have noticed how NTs who come here often ask the same questions, scattered all over the board, never connecting with others in similar situations. The greater ASD community is about more than just people on the spectrum. It also includes the people closest to us. If we have loved ones who want to learn more about us to improve the quality of our relationships, we should be happy to accommodate them in the most organized, user-friendly manner possible.

I also believe we could avoid some of what gonz called "harsh responses" to NTs by giving them a dedicated sub-forum for their questions. A space like that could have its own guidelines, making decorum and management very straightforward.

 

[Nadador]

I get what you're saying and that's why I try not to be rude. It just makes me wonder if most Aspie's got bullied in life and don't appreciate it, then why are some doing that same thing to an NT on this forum who is here because they like being around Aspies?

In my experience, a person will justify adopting/repeating the behaviours of their abusers by thinking it's "different" when they, as a persecuted minority, strike back at members of the group they view as hostile. This is idiotic, of course. It only creates an endless cycle, and bullying is bullying, full stop.

That's one of the many dangers of the "us v. them" mentality. One stops seeing individuals, only affiliations.

One even left the site entirely saying it was because of me. That was the time I honestly thought about leaving...(edit)...That statement made me feel bad because I don't want any Aspie leaving their own community because of me, an NT.

This is what Adam encountered. To be blunt, I've come to think it's a tactic. Emotional manipulation, just like a romantic partner who threatens to leave every time there's an argument. People with AS are supposed to be honest, straightforward folk, but I've noted some very manipulative, deceptive, and passive-aggressive behaviour from a small handful of Aspies on these forums. Nobody who's present today, thankfully. Good riddance.

Would this potentially isolate NTs even more than they already are?

I don't see having a separate sub-forum as a form of segregation. NTs would still be free to post anywhere they wish on AC, and NDs would still be welcome, perhaps even needed, on NT-focused threads. When I joined here, I was actually surprised that there wasn't already a sub-forum like the one Nadador is suggesting...(edit)

Agreed with Slithy on this. The forum section as I imagined it wouldn't restrict NTs in any way. I would think it would actually make them feel more included if we acknowledged their particular needs by giving them a hub for their own topics.

Slithy, about another comment you made...I, too, have noticed that there isn't presently a website for loved ones of people with ASDs, save forums for parents of children with profound Autism. It's a pity, really. It's higher-functioners like ourselves that can be most confusing to NTs, I think. It's harder for them to understand the finer points of how we're different, as we generally conduct ourselves in ways that closely resemble their own behaviour. Partners, for example, take up with us based largely on what they observe that they do understand, but as they get closer, they find themselves running into all sorts of puzzling behaviours they never expected and are at a loss to comprehend.

People these days are so busy that it's hard to spend a lot of time on things that don't demand our attention. Further, it's entirely possible that NTs are reading, but not posting.

True and true. Good thoughts, both.

Yeah, this would be my concern, that most NTs don't stick around because, well, it is the aspies who get obsessive over their interests, and it is the aspies who need a supportive community for like-minded folks...(edit)

Good points about likely NT attitudes when visiting here.

NT loved ones likely don't realise that they, too, have special needs when involved with one of us. I think it behooves us to make that clearer. We, ourselves can't give them all they need, as we can't fully grasp it. Other NTs in similar situations, however, can empathise properly. But how are they to find each other?

You've made excellent points in all of your posts on this thread. I'd like to comment more to you, for that, but honestly, you said everything so well that there's little left to add. Brilliant.

 

[Ste11aeres]

I get what you're saying and that's why I try not to be rude. It just makes me wonder if most Aspie's got bullied in life and don't appreciate it, then why are some doing that same thing to an NT on this forum who is here because they like being around Aspies?

The short answer? Because humans are very very imperfect creatures.

Not an excuse, just an explanation.

 

[Nadador]

...(edit) It's been feeling to me as if I keep tripping over the same questions over and over, regardless of the forum's topic--and further, as if strangers just sign up, log in, and complain at length about people who act just like us, as if I'd help a stranger bash a stranger...in public. It isn't right. (In the world according to me.)

I bristled at a few such posts when I first joined up here, but over time I've come to understand these NTs don't mean offence. They could well have just gone of facebook and b*tched to their friends if all they wanted to do was bash. Yet they sought us out specifically, which says to me they are looking for feedback, which seems a good sign, really. And sometimes, the person they're spouting off about deserves some bashing, even if they are a fellow Aspie, in which case I'll gladly say so. I have found that some individuals exist in our greater community whom I have affectionately titled "Aspholes".

AC is such a strange animal. By becoming a regular here, we're effectively asked to become counsellors, sympathisers, educators, fictive family members...we play more roles here than many of us do in regular life. It's true to say I think it's good for us, even when sometimes we run across posts and people who rub us the wrong way. I simply try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and believe their intentions are ultimately good.

Visiting NTs are often here because they're confused by the Aspies in their lives. With that in mind, how can we expect them to know how what they say might inadvertently affect us?

I've really enjoyed his posts when I found them. One of them in particular was really helpful since I happened to read it at a good moment.

Thank you. I'll happily pass this on.

...(edit) Some of my projects let me play with the valuation of intangible assets, which starts with defining variables. Then figuring out how to quantify the variables. Then whether the variables suggest meeting profit threshholds or program goals. Right now, for instance, I'm trying to put together an algorithm for how an employee can prove they return more than they cost...which should insure them against a layoff and help them negotiate for merit raises. This is part of what I call "fun" (ducks behind desk to avoid rotten tomatoes).

I can't abide being stuck behind a desk, but you won't be getting any tomatoes hurled by me, as I find that sort of thing a fun diversion on occasion. What Aspie doesn't enjoy a good puzzle?

What exactly do you do for a living, if I may ask? [I laugh as I write this, as in England it's actually considered rude to ask that question. My mother would give me quite a look were she alive to read this.]

Engagement metrics are challenging. I think the forum on Site Suggestions and Feedback does serve that purpose, kind of. The problem with using that as the sole metric is it's strongly biased to people who want change and are willing and able to not only define what they want, but to write it and post it publicly.

"Engagement metrics." I like that. I didn't know there was a proper term. I think you're right about the bias in the suggestions forum. I never visit that section unless I have a technical thorn in my side that needs pulling, and I rarely bother looking at anyone else's thorns while I'm there.

It's a sad fact for businesses, organisations, and voluntary communities alike that one can't ever truly prove a negative. What one can do, however, is look for the unfilled niche, and canvass satisfied consumers to find out what could be done better, in the hope that acting on those could help with retention and expanding appeal. I do a bit of this for my television programme...we're always looking at ways to keep the audience we've got, plus attract new viewers. Interestingly, I've found that sometimes those tasks are at cross-purposes. Probably true in any enterprise. Anyway, I digress....

thank you, again, for thoughtful reply.

My pleasure.

 

[Harrison]

AC is such a strange animal. By becoming a regular here, we're effectively asked to become counsellors, sympathisers, educators, fictive family members...we play more roles here than many of us do in regular life. It's true to say I think it's good for us, even when sometimes we run across posts and people who rub us the wrong way. I simply try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, and believe their intentions are ultimately good.

Visiting NTs are often here because they're confused by the Aspies in their lives. With that in mind, how can we expect them to know how what they say might inadvertently affect us?

This is the great yet simple truth of it.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

I think this is a great idea. To my knowledge, there is no broad support community for partners, family and friends of Aspies and HFAs, so giving that crew a little corner of their own could be beneficial to all concerned...The greater ASD community is about more than just people on the spectrum. It also includes the people closest to us. If we have loved ones who want to learn more about us to improve the quality of our relationships, we should be happy to accommodate them in the most organized, user-friendly manner possible.

I also believe we could avoid some of what gonz called "harsh responses" to NTs by giving them a dedicated sub-forum for their questions. A space like that could have its own guidelines, making decorum and management very straightforward.

There aren't enough 'Like' button clicks to express my enthusiasm for this, Slithytoves.

Yet they sought us out specifically, which says to me they are looking for feedback, which seems a good sign, really. And sometimes, the person they're spouting off about deserves some bashing, even if they are a fellow Aspie, in which case I'll gladly say so. I have found that some individuals exist in our greater community whom I have affectionately titled "Aspholes". ...By becoming a regular here, we're effectively asked to become counsellors, sympathisers, educators, fictive family members...we play more roles here than many of us do in regular life.

I'll buy that. Although no post in the world ever includes all the details. All a post can really tell me is "what does the poster want me to know about them?" The post doesn't really tell me about the problem. So, in counseling, we are told not to fix the problem--the person already has the solution or the capability to solve it, and the responsibility for it. They can't do what they can't think of, so "telling" them doesn't help. Telling ain't training. Raising the best questions we can and then sitting with the discomfort is where we help, by making it easier to think slow. "Alone in the head, slow" often just doesn't work, even if you're not struggling with impulse control.

So if my conclusion about a new poster is <insert scathing remark here>, people like me just need to shut up and leave. But we have to notice the feeling and the thought to do that, which is part of what I'm struggling with now. Hence my enthusiasm for Slithytoves's observation. I can't put my problems away in the blink of an eye when I'm ambushed, even when theoretically I agree I should and in fact do want and welcome counseling opportunities. I can't flip to counselor on command, or stimulus, or whatever, I have to be ready to pick up the responsibility and the mindset that goes with it first.

I can't abide being stuck behind a desk, but you won't be getting any tomatoes hurled by me, as I find that sort of thing a fun diversion on occasion. What Aspie doesn't enjoy a good puzzle?

What exactly do you do for a living, if I may ask? [I laugh as I write this, as in England it's actually considered rude to ask that question. My mother would give me quite a look were she alive to read this.]

I'm a scrum master, temporarily working as a business analyst. PM me if those syllables don't make sense. Really appreciate your points. It's taken me quite a long time to think through your points. One of them was so compelling I'm not done with it yet.