Predisposed to be a liar?

[Keigan]

@AveApollo ,

If you are so fed up, please go start your own thread on the topic and details you are so passionate about, so that this thread can continue within the spirit of the original post.

 

[Mary Terry]

I've spent a lot of time around autistic teenagers for years. Yes, some lie and for no apparent reason. (sometimes I think it is almost like they are running a mental exploration of their personal lives and a way to "test drive" alternative ways for them to respond to society to see what happens.) I don't know why they do it (unless it is something very obvious like they want another taco or cupcake after eating more than their share!) but I do find that autistics are usually terrible liars when compared to NT teenagers. Their naivety and reduced ability to process their immediate environment and the immediate situation make them less successful liars than NTs. They do not seem to understand how readily NTs can detect lying, whereas NT teenage liars can become slick, sophisticated, manipulative liars who occasionally fool even a 60+ year old mother, grandmother, and tutor of autistic students, namely me, and I'm far from being a fool. Please do not give up on your son. He is growing up, the best way he can for now. He is trying to find where he belongs and make sense of a world that is often non-sensical to him. Please try to teach him that lying is bad, that bad things come from lying, and that honesty is always best. He can be proud of being honest but he will be ashamed and socially shunned if he lies. Hang in there for him!

 

[SteveH]

Thanks EVERYONE for your thoughts here(frustrating as they may be). The conversation itself illustrates so many big issues for us. I think that most people can agree with the answer of--No, don't assume that your son's lying is necessarily associated with AS. Clearly, Allana is committed to develop a nuanced understanding of her son and AS itself--not easy. I know that we all appreciate that. Autism can be manifested very differently from individual to individual. An AS person can have a dual-diagnosis. And yes, an Autism--spectrum person can be a mensch, a jerk, etc. I have background and psychology and appreciate AveApollo's point of view very much. I don't want to fall into the trap of wearing a diagnosis like a badge, or creating a convenient/reinforcing narrative that makes me more comfortable with what/who I am--which may ultimately prevent me from moving forward on my own path. This may be the most difficult task for anyone(AS or NT). I feel that because the effect of AS is so pervasive--it makes this task even more challenging. A commitment to research and a fact-based world is a start. However, because AS is so pervasive, I see no harm in people sharing in general. I am careful to distinguish between my personal experience and AS "fact". I have read more than a few posts that have made my eyes roll. That said--keep posting. The benefits outweigh the cons. Hopefully everyone that gets info from AC uses it as just one part of their understanding of the AS experience.

 

[EEor Not]

I suggest you impose some form of punishment that outweighs the gratification he obtains from lying and make sure he understands why he is being punished. Consistently take away something he loves for a sufficient length of time to help him understand cause and effect. If he loves some TV show, then don't let him watch that show for one day. If he loves potato chips, then take away the chips for one day. Whatever works. Make sure he understands the reason he is being deprived of that thing he loves. Consider returning the beloved thing to him only after he has acknowledged and apologized for his bad behavior. I suppose this is like behavior modification. He can learn that bad consequences flow from bad behavior. He seems to know right from wrong from your description of his behavior. He can learn that lying equals no special TV show, or no special food treat, or whatever will motivate him. I don't really think this is an ASD issue as much as a maturity issue. NT children and teenagers will do the same things if there are no significant bad consequences to follow their bad behavior. Hope that will help. Good luck!

These rather childish punishments may work with somebody under 10 years old but I would not try that with a 17yr old aspie. Aspie's can have violent and vengeful tendencies, I speak from experience here. Couple that with teenage immaturity and you can have an explosive situation.

In reading between the lines it seems the OP is afraid he is going to do something that get's him into either legal trouble or in a personal conflict with the wrong type of people. I would just explain that to him calmly and simply after he cools off. The law isn't going to be excused on the basis his diagnosis - even if it would be considered, he will spend just spend time in an institution versus a prison and the time served may actually be longer than with a non spectrum subject. And alienating the wrong type of person in society, well that can be deadly. Aspies often don't see that deep at first.

In a year he woill be a legal adult. He's going to do what he's going to do and all you can do is to advise. Aspies are typically highly intelligent. They can reason and analyze a potential situation well beyond the average person. They just have to get past the initial anger which lasts only a few hours in my case. Then they will probably reason it out quite competently.

Control the impulse. That's what I had to learn in the past 57 years! and I still slip but fortunately I never went too far.

 

[starving_artist]

Aspie's can have violent and vengeful tendencies, I speak from experience here.

Speak for yourself. I am not like this, nor have I ever been. I had some emotional regulation issues when I was younger, but that was due to my bipolar disorder (which began to show itself in my early teenage years) and not my autism; and grappling with strong feelings never made me "vengeful". I don't think "vengeful" is an accurate description of most aspies/auties.

 

[EEor Not]

Speak for yourself. I am not like this, nor have I ever been. I had some emotional regulation issues when I was younger, but that was due to my bipolar disorder (which began to show itself in my early teenage years) and not my autism; and grappling with strong feelings never made me "vengeful". I don't think "vengeful" is an accurate description of most aspies/auties.

What part of "can have" [these tendencies] don't you understand? I don't see where I made an absolute claim encompassing the entire group..

 

[starving_artist]

These rather childish punishments may work with somebody under 10 years old but I would not try that with a 17yr old aspie. Aspie's can have violent and vengeful tendencies, I speak from experience here.

This implies that not just because he is a teenager but also because he is an aspie that he is more likely to be violent and vengeful. Being autistic doesn't predispose one to violent behaviour. Being human can, but I don't believe one is more likely to be violent if one is an autistic human. I'm pretty sure that research backs me up in this regard.

 

[EEor Not]

This implies that not just because he is a teenager but also because he is an aspie that he is more likely to be violent and vengeful. Being autistic doesn't predispose one to violent behaviour. Being human can, but I don't believe one is more likely to be violent if one is an autistic human. I'm pretty sure that research backs me up in this regard.

No, research on this shows aspies can have violent tendencies. It's linked to the impulsive behavior. You say you don't. That's fortunate for you and those around you. But that doesn't apply to aspies as a group anymore than saying all aspies have violent tendencies would.

 

[CyborgSpaceKitten]

So is ridiculous lying and lack of remorse Spectrum and just his own poor character issues.

Your thoughts/ideas are welcome.

Let me put it to you this way. When I was younger I once dropped the lid to a cookie jar and swore, while my mom wasn't around. My brother was in the room, but he wouldn't have told on me, but I was so upset and immediately remorseful I started crying and ran in to tell my mom what I had done and how sorry I was, and even offered to wash my own mouth with soap (which was the usual punishment for swearing). I was so immediately upset with what I had done, and knew that rules were there to help me, that I felt like I HAD to turn myself in.

Another incident; I was at a grocery store with my mom, and I REALLY wanted some candy that she said I couldn't have, and at first I took it and put it in my pocket. It was only 5 cents, so I thought nobody would miss it and other kids stole things all the time. Within 3 minutes I started bawling and showed it to my mom and asked her if she could ever forgive me.

I've known many other people on the spectrum, and most of them act very similarly in such situations....especially when rules are involved. I don't believe that habitual lying is a spectrum trait at all.

I was never able to lie until later in life when I became a drug addict, but that is a completely different situation. I luckily am in recovery now, and am back to my normal non-lying self.

Hope that helps

 

[starving_artist]

No, research on this shows aspies can have violent tendencies. It's linked to the impulsive behavior. You say you don't. That's fortunate for you and those around you. But that doesn't apply to aspies as a group anymore than saying all aspies have violent tendencies would.

Opinion: Autism link to violence is a myth - CNN.com

Asperger's and Violence: Experts Weigh In
"Indeed, psychologists and psychiatrists agree that people with autism or Asperger’s are not more likely to commit violent crimes than members of the general population..."

http://health.usnews.com/health-new...pergers-autism-not-linked-to-violence-experts
""There really is no evidence that links autism or Asperger's to violence," said Geraldine Dawson, chief science officer at the nonprofit advocacy group Autism Speaks and a professor of psychiatry at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill."

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00223980.2016.1175998
"There is no evidence that people with ASD are more violent than those without ASD..."

That's my mic drop.

 

[EEor Not]

Opinion: Autism link to violence is a myth - CNN.com

Asperger's and Violence: Experts Weigh In
"Indeed, psychologists and psychiatrists agree that people with autism or Asperger’s are not more likely to commit violent crimes than members of the general population..."

http://health.usnews.com/health-new...pergers-autism-not-linked-to-violence-experts
""There really is no evidence that links autism or Asperger's to violence," said Geraldine Dawson, chief science officer at the nonprofit advocacy group Autism Speaks and a professor of psychiatry at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill."

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00223980.2016.1175998
"There is no evidence that people with ASD are more violent than those without ASD..."

That's my mic drop.

You do realize all of the quoted references you provided focus on the Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings. IOW, they are all about the same individual or the same action, that is mass shootings. That's not a good sampling at all to form a conclusion. Violence comes in many forms.

 

[starving_artist]

You do realize all of the quoted references you provided focus on the Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings. IOW, they are all about the same individual. That's not a good sampling at all to form a conclusion.

They were written just after that event, but they are not just about it and not just about that single individual. Now you are being dishonest. They cite researchers who claim that autistic people are no more likely to be violent than anyone else. There is even some evidence that people with autism are LESS likely to be violent than your average neurotypical, and MORE likely to be the VICTIMS of violence rather than the perpetrators. It's OK to admit when you make a mistake; not doing so makes you seem like a disingenuous debater.

 

[Blast off]

My question is why does he feel like he needs to lie about things? Are you being overly strict perhaps? I've found that many times people who lie are being pressured to be something they are not, so they lie and try to compensate for it. I've been in the situation before, now I don't care so much what others think of me and am out of a very tense pressurized place, my parents home. Not accusing or anything just pointing out a potential possibility.

 

[Eromevol]

I lied through a lot of my life trying to say the appropriate thing, then Id metaphorically beat myself senseless for it.

 

[Mary Terry]

These rather childish punishments may work with somebody under 10 years old but I would not try that with a 17yr old aspie. Aspie's can have violent and vengeful tendencies, I speak from experience here. Couple that with teenage immaturity and you can have an explosive situation.

In reading between the lines it seems the OP is afraid he is going to do something that get's him into either legal trouble or in a personal conflict with the wrong type of people. I would just explain that to him calmly and simply after he cools off. The law isn't going to be excused on the basis his diagnosis - even if it would be considered, he will spend just spend time in an institution versus a prison and the time served may actually be longer than with a non spectrum subject. And alienating the wrong type of person in society, well that can be deadly. Aspies often don't see that deep at first.

In a year he woill be a legal adult. He's going to do what he's going to do and all you can do is to advise. Aspies are typically highly intelligent. They can reason and analyze a potential situation well beyond the average person. They just have to get past the initial anger which lasts only a few hours in my case. Then they will probably reason it out quite competently.

Control the impulse. That's what I had to learn in the past 57 years! and I still slip but fortunately I never went too far.

I don't think withholding a treasured item or activity is necessarily a "childish" punishment for a 17 year old aspie. Many aspie children of that age are immature when compared to NT children of that age, so the punishment of withholding something of value often IS age appropriate for their emotional development level. Have you never heard of grounding an NT teenager who has misbehaved? Grounding is another form of withholding something valued by the teenager. Adult autistics are rarely violent as shown by statistical analysis. Yes, I have seen autistic children under the age of 10 throw and break things or strike out at others during meltdowns. But then, I've seen plenty of NT children and NT teenagers do the same or worse.

 

[Mary Terry]

These rather childish punishments may work with somebody under 10 years old but I would not try that with a 17yr old aspie. Aspie's can have violent and vengeful tendencies, I speak from experience here. Couple that with teenage immaturity and you can have an explosive situation.

In reading between the lines it seems the OP is afraid he is going to do something that get's him into either legal trouble or in a personal conflict with the wrong type of people. I would just explain that to him calmly and simply after he cools off. The law isn't going to be excused on the basis his diagnosis - even if it would be considered, he will spend just spend time in an institution versus a prison and the time served may actually be longer than with a non spectrum subject. And alienating the wrong type of person in society, well that can be deadly. Aspies often don't see that deep at first.

In a year he woill be a legal adult. He's going to do what he's going to do and all you can do is to advise. Aspies are typically highly intelligent. They can reason and analyze a potential situation well beyond the average person. They just have to get past the initial anger which lasts only a few hours in my case. Then they will probably reason it out quite competently.

Control the impulse. That's what I had to learn in the past 57 years! and I still slip but fortunately I never went too far.

FYI, 21 years is the age of majority in my state, not 18 years.

 

[Misty Mountain Hop]

I'm aspergian and as a child I didn't understand the concept of lying. I literally could not lie. Now of course as an adult I understand that telling a white lie here and there is important in certain situations. Mostly when trying to spare someone hurt feelings.

 

[Ambi]

I do not have a personality disorder. It was confirmed to me by the person who diagnosed me that he does see people on the spectrum who do not show/experience/have empathy. Mainly from his experience people with Asperger's. I trust having lived as me and having had him (a professor of neurology) confirm this to me, more than the EQ, although that was interesting. (I scored 6).

I can indeed sympathise when I know that somebody is suffering in some way. I cannot empathise with them, because to empathise, you need to be able to (to some degree) be able to see things from their perspective, or 'put yourself in their shoes'. I can't do that, I can only see things from my 'shoes'.

I also cannot really empathize. For years, I thought I could - then I realized no. I can sympathize - but what I had confused for empathizing was just my own strong emotional reaction to the strong emotional reaction or situation that others were going through - it was too much for me to bear without reacting, but not in an empathetic way. Like....someone will feel sad about something, and instead of feeling sad with them or for them, I'll get mad about what happened - yes, I have concern for them, but the reaction comes from the emotional disturbance I feel from the presence of their emotional disturbance, and/or because I care about them - it's like their situation/disturbance threw a stone in my pond, and caused ripples. I never feel what they feel, even though I can be concerned about their situation - still, my concern is not from their perspective, just from my perspective of that situation, which can be very different and often is.

 

[Ambi]

I sometimes lie without meaning to or realizing it - when I am at a loss as to what to say or respond, or I'm in an awkward situation, I may just say stuff that's not really true, either out of carelessness or....I don't know why. But that is different from intentionally misleading people - it's more like the game of communication goes by so quickly for me that sometimes I find myself cheating a bit to keep my head above water. I hate that I do it and feel pretty awful about it afterwards.