My Internal Conflict Right Now

[andrew-notfunny]

-I hate neurotypical society to the point where I think I am and all Autistic people are better than them on a base level
-I know that sounds wrong and creepy but I can't stop thinking about it

-I want to "return what they did to me" (be a complete gaslighting sarcastic (I can't say this next word on here, I'm pretty sure) if I feel like they're insulting me again)
-I know that sounds wrong and creepy but I can't stop thinking about it

-I want to see neurotypicals as not worthy of anything but very basic respect, like they are half-humans with this inherent evil in them beyond their control
-I know that sounds wrong and creepy but I can't stop thinking about it

I want them to feel what it is like to experience them. If they cannot understand it when I'm being nice or not nice, then I'll learn to use their methods and turn them against them.

I know this sounds wrong, I just don't know why.

Please help. Please don't get angry or ban me. I'm not expecting you to be psychologists or anything but please, I hope you're patient with this one.

 

[tree]

Your thoughts are running away with themselves
and you aren't enjoying the feelings that are a result?

You are saying that what you're thinking sounds wrong and creepy.
But you can't stop thinking the thoughts.

Are you looking for ways to get a grip on your thoughts?
Or what?

 

[jsilver256]

Someone once had a very good analogy for me that helped me understand why some people act the way they do. In retrospect I think it might be a good analogy for NTs/NDs.

Imagine a puppy. Puppies like praises and attention, right? You can insult a puppy, say the worst things to it, complete nonsense. But the puppy doesn't care. As long as the pets are right, as long as the tone of voice is right, it will be happy. And you are paying attention to the puppy's cues, like, if the puppy doesn't like its stomach rubbed, you'll pet its head instead.

I think NTs are like that puppy. NDs are trying to interact with a puppy as if it cares about what the words being said are. And likewise NTs end up being mean because they feel mistreated/spurned by the ND, to them a ND is like a person who refuses to pet a dog or speaks to it in a mean tone.

 

[Xinyta]

What you are thinking isn't abnormal nor unusual. Just misguided.

We all have had similar thought processes about the world and people. And recognizing these thought processes are not what you want, is a good thing. A step in the right direction to answering the questions that you seek, shrouded in the veil.

As far as stopping such thought processes. That requires work. Looking to activities and/or a different environment, tend to help regain equilibrium.

- Moving to a different room or a open space

- Focusing on something you enjoy doing such as a hobby or a small pet project

Creating, writing down, and practicing counter thoughts and slowly applying them to real life situations will help start breaking unwanted negative thoughts that can be intrusive or generally instinctual.

Have a plan to handle uncomfortable situations where you cannot get away from them.

- A figet toy

- A environmental item like a magazine or tv

- Thinking about something you look forward to when the uncomfortable situation is done

Not sure what all will help, as we all are different in our approaches and mentality. But it's stuff to consider.

 

[andrew-notfunny]

Your thoughts are running away with themselves
and you aren't enjoying the feelings that are a result?

You are saying that what you're thinking sounds wrong and creepy.
But you can't stop thinking the thoughts.

Are you looking for ways to get a grip on your thoughts?
Or what?

That is oversimplifying it but you could say that, sure.
The point was that I am looking for a way to not lose hope, a way to avoid emotional pain, a way to feel better about myself. Those are all basic human things.
Yet I feel as if that's denied from me, encouraged against.
It is a hard thing to explain of course.
But that is my experience and I detailed a potential response of mine to that here.
My viewpoint on these issues did suddenly switch, that's why I feel so discomforted by it.
So I'm looking for a constructive response.

 

[tree]

Do you have a therapist that you see on a regular basis?

 

[Neonatal RRT]

It's easy to play the victim, get angry, and blame others for your situation, or at least making the situation worse. I think we have all experienced thoughts like this at one time or another. So, no judgement. Been there, done that. It's our frustration and anger running amok over our logic centers.

All I can say is, "This too, shall pass." and we eventually gain acceptance, wisdom, learn coping strategies, adapt, and overcome. The reality is that neurotypicals are the majority and they make their world for them, not us. No sense in blaming them and we can't expect the majority to adjust everything in their world to accommodate us. It's silly to even consider it.

Most neurotypicals are good people, but make no mistake, all it takes is a few "bad apples" to form a cognitive bias against them. We seem to be wired up for negativity in that respect. I generally do not bond with people, nor do I necessarily want to, and this gives me the coping mechanism to not give their behaviors much thought. I just move on. Sure, there are people within your inner circle that you sort of have to pay attention to, but even then, be polite, smile, and move on. I don't allow myself to become triggered by their behaviors, because frankly, I don't have the "theory of mind" to have their perspective without asking a lot of questions, and most of the time, I don't care enough to ask the clarifying questions. It's a rare exception that things really are that important and do matter.

 

[andrew-notfunny]

Do you have a therapist that you see on a regular basis?

My current psychologist broke her leg so I haven't seen her for a long time now. So no.

 

[Chailatte_]

Well, what can I say, I think that everyone has thought about this sooner or later, it's natural (of course, it shouldn't lead to criminal acts).
I'm the first to think: if everyone were neurodiverse like me, I wouldn't have all these problems.
Lately, I've been reading a book on cultural anthropology, very beautiful, and I find it illuminating from many points of view.
Let me quote a piece from the book:
"Ethnocentrism is a universal phenomenon that implicitly or explicitly induces one to consider their own culture as the best, placing themselves at the center of the universe" (A.Castellani (2021), Cultural Anthropology: An Introduction).

Neurodiverse people are ultimately an ethnicity, if you will, and like all ethnicities, we believe ourselves to be better, we have this sense of superiority, don't you think? Let me give you some examples of common ethnocentrism for any person:
1 When you believe that the cuisine of your country is better than others
2 When you judge the leader/president of another country
3 When you judge or criticize the customs and habits (beauty standards, geographical position, cleanliness, etc.) of another country
And I could go on.
Here are some of mine:
1 All neurotypicals only talk about superficial things
2 All neurotypicals are arrogant and rude
3 All neurotypical girls only think about physical appearance and don't cultivate their intellect at all
(And I could continue here too).
This is feeling superior, and whether we like it or not, it's the same for everyone, it's innate, it's part of us.
On what basis do we feel superior? Well, because if you come to say one or all three of the points mentioned above about something, you'll be basing it on something, and guess what you're basing it on to make the comparison? On what is familiar to you and feels like yours, namely your ethnicity/culture.

This is obviously a fascinating but also dangerous discourse, because on the one hand it conceals the need to preserve one's own customs and traditions, on the other hand, it can give rise to hatred and a desire to exterminate others, which we know is immoral and stupid (very simplistic but it wasn't the point of the discourse).
The point is: accept this innate side of you that we all have and don't care about the phrases of the fake do-gooders who say they are "citizens of the world" because as human beings we have a strong sense of belonging and a need for a point where we can place ourselves/make reference, the point is not to be fake citizens of the world, the point is to accept that there are no citizens of the world but a lot of different people, with different cultures, customs, and each of them thinks they are better than the other, but that's okay, we are made like that, the important thing is to accept, not to hate, not to hate diversity, not to hate the culture of others, not to desire the death of a people just because they don't adopt the customs of yours, see and recognize the cultural barriers and respect them, don't cross them, but look for a common point that unites you, it's enough to say to tear down walls, etc., walls are built for protection! Doesn't anyone have walls at home? What do you hold the roof of your house with? With fake goodness?
Walls serve because they delimit a boundary, sacred, that gives us protection, if someone wants to enter the house, they can do it through the front door, surely not by tearing down a wall of the house or climbing over the wall.

Finally, be proud to feel afraid of your thoughts and even ashamed of them, if you didn't feel shame or fear, then there would be something to be afraid of.

Note: The original text was in Italian, there may be errors due to translation or there may have been losses of meaning.

 

[andrew-notfunny]

"Ethnocentrism is a universal phenomenon that implicitly or explicitly induces one to consider their own culture as the best, placing themselves at the center of the universe" (A.Castellani (2021), Cultural Anthropology: An Introduction).

Neurodiverse people are ultimately an ethnicity, if you will, and like all ethnicities, we believe ourselves to be better, we have this sense of superiority, don't you think? Let me give you some examples of common ethnocentrism for any person:
1 When you believe that the cuisine of your country is better than others
2 When you judge the leader/president of another country
3 When you judge or criticize the customs and habits (beauty standards, geographical position, cleanliness, etc.) of another country
And I could go on.
Here are some of mine:
1 All neurotypicals only talk about superficial things
2 All neurotypicals are arrogant and rude
3 All neurotypical girls only think about physical appearance and don't cultivate their intellect at all
(And I could continue here too).
This is feeling superior, and whether we like it or not, it's the same for everyone, it's innate, it's part of us.
On what basis do we feel superior? Well, because if you come to say one or all three of the points mentioned above about something, you'll be basing it on something, and guess what you're basing it on to make the comparison? On what is familiar to you and feels like yours, namely your ethnicity/culture.

This is obviously a fascinating but also dangerous discourse, because on the one hand it conceals the need to preserve one's own customs and traditions, on the other hand, it can give rise to hatred and a desire to exterminate others, which we know is immoral and stupid (very simplistic but it wasn't the point of the discourse).

Okay. So I knew it will come to this. Let me be clear: I am constantly on the edge of becoming a Socialist and I'm also insanely Liberal, culturally also. I do also want to draw a harsh line here. But thoughts like the ones I mentioned still keep reoccuring to me despite this, which is a weird experience. I (hopefully) know what you mean by comparing neurodivergence to ethnicity here and that similarity is a big part of why I try to stop these feelings appearing inside of me. The thing is it might be rooted in the pride I never got to experience, not just regarding my ND status (at least not directly, I never understood why I was always seen as the weird kid nobody wanted to be around).
I also do not try to conceal anything here, in fact I try being honest to the point where it hurts even for me.
Sorry if this feels like too much of a vent. You did make good points. Thanks for the support/advice/warning.

 

[Misery]

I just hope you know that you arent alone in this. Feeling like that, it happens for many, I think.

I get this sometimes too, more than I normally would ever admit to.

For me it's like this:

1. I tend to have a very, very low opinion of the intelligence of most people. Dumber than stumps, the lot of them. And I find myself usually dumbing down things I say so people can actually understand. Which sounds like a bunch of nonsense, but I find if I DONT do that, they really dont understand most of the time. This forum is one of the only places where I dont do that.

2. I do indeed find that the things NTs usually want to talk about are just mind-numbing. I cant understand how any of those topics can hold their attention at all, it's baffling to me.

3. I try to avoid interacting with them more than I have to. It's just so unpleasant. I tend to always assume that this will be the case with new NT people that I meet.

NONE of that is actually fair, but... yeah. And that's me being honest about this in a way that I almost never am... usually I would never admit to any of that.

But I just want to show that you absolutely arent the only one who feels like this.

 

[Rodafina]

-I hate neurotypical society to the point where I think I am and all Autistic people are better than them on a base level
-I know that sounds wrong and creepy but I can't stop thinking about it

-I want to "return what they did to me" (be a complete gaslighting sarcastic (I can't say this next word on here, I'm pretty sure) if I feel like they're insulting me again)
-I know that sounds wrong and creepy but I can't stop thinking about it

-I want to see neurotypicals as not worthy of anything but very basic respect, like they are half-humans with this inherent evil in them beyond their control
-I know that sounds wrong and creepy but I can't stop thinking about it

I want them to feel what it is like to experience them. If they cannot understand it when I'm being nice or not nice, then I'll learn to use their methods and turn them against them.

I know this sounds wrong, I just don't know why.

Please help. Please don't get angry or ban me. I'm not expecting you to be psychologists or anything but please, I hope you're patient with this one.

My first idea is for you to replace the word "neurotypical" with "autistic" in your post above and see how that feels. That isn't meant to shame you. I say it in all seriousness as an exercise to reflect on what you've shared here.

I don't know that "wrong and creepy" are the words I'd choose to describe your thoughts. It sounds like you are processing quite a lot of pain and looking for something outside of yourself to explain the pain. Perhaps, you want to ease your pain by getting the identified cause (neurotypical people) to experience a similar level of pain to you.

 

[Chailatte_]

Okay. So I knew it will come to this. Let me be clear: I am constantly on the edge of becoming a Socialist and I'm also insanely Liberal, culturally also. I do also want to draw a harsh line here. But thoughts like the ones I mentioned still keep reoccuring to me despite this, which is a weird experience. I (hopefully) know what you mean by comparing neurodivergence to ethnicity here and that similarity is a big part of why I try to stop these feelings appearing inside of me. The thing is it might be rooted in the pride I never got to experience, not just regarding my ND status (at least not directly, I never understood why I was always seen as the weird kid nobody wanted to be around).
I also do not try to conceal anything here, in fact I try being honest to the point where it hurts even for me.
Sorry if this feels like too much of a vent. You did make good points. Thanks for the support/advice/warning.

You don't have to apologize, I think you should accept these feelings and not suppress them, confront them and embrace them, because suppressing such strong feelings doesn't lead to well-being. You did well to share it, now it's up to you to try to face how you see yourself, ignore how others see you, but not out of cowardice or resignation, no! But out of resilience and the desire and right to be yourself regardless of the labels others give you. Of course, it takes courage and it's an ongoing process (I'm still working on it myself). Right now, I'm the strange girl who seems like nobody wants around, but sometimes I think it's mostly my perception rooted deeply in my childhood. Sure, sometimes it's reality, but that doesn't mean we should stop being ourselves. I've accepted many uncomfortable things about myself that others found uncomfortable and that, in turn, made it uncomfortable for me:
1. My ethnic mix brings a lot of prejudices.
2. My appearance carries a lot of negative prejudices because in the society we live in, being "genetically fortunate" is admired, hated, and negatively stereotyped.
3. I live daily with my appearance not reflecting the outer person I am because if outside "I'm pleasant" and people interact accordingly, I don't know how to handle it because I don't classify myself in any way, but in society, appearance x = treatment y. Appearance s = treatment c (all just for a bunch of inherited traits and no personal/sweated merit) all because that's how society works. But what am I supposed to do? Put a cardboard on me? (Which I would gladly do so as not to find myself at the center of attention and not know how to handle it, because I don't understand the reason for it on a "logical" level because I didn't ask for it, I don't want it, and I don't need it). Because many times I've been bullied and isolated out of jealousy even though I never gave them a pretext to feel that way because if you're kind and pleasant "you're hitting on them or you're fake." I'm not fake, I'm kind and polite because I like to be and it helps me sleep at night, because arrogance is not in my nature (although sometimes I wish there was at least a little). And I could go on. I'm the cute weirdo who was told by her high school teacher "there's nothing more ungraceful than a beautiful woman who as soon as she opens her mouth, with her facial expressions ruins the harmony on her face" and it still hurts because I think that with every move I make, people see my "strange facial movements." For a long time, I was ashamed to smile because I thought that would give others a reason to avoid me, because I thought I was weird. But now I've faced them. There are days when even just having to go out and face these prejudices weighs on me and I don't even go out. But for the rest of the days, I don't care. I'm proud of who I am, I know what I have to offer, and if people want to stop at a superficial level, let them! I continue not to classify myself in any way because I don't see myself as more or less than others, if others feel inferior, it's not my problem, it's their complex, not mine. If they want to exclude me for being weird or for genetics, it's not my problem, and you know why? Because if they exclude you for such trivial things as something as variable and volatile as external appearance (which is here today and gone tomorrow), they are superficial people who will only bring a superficial contribution to your life, and personally, I don't need that.

 

[Au Naturel]

What I am hearing is black-and-white thinking. NT and NDs are just people on a spectrum. The two groups fade into each other, rather like colors fade into each other in a rainbow. Saying "NTs this" and "NDs that" is lazy thinking.

Humans like to group people into "us and them" because we evolved in a tribal environment where it makes evolutionary sense, both because your troop shares more of your genes and the other guys compete for resources.

There are plenty of despicable NDs out there. There are plenty of NTs who hold nothing against you because of the abstract notion of autism. If you force other people to fit into negative stereotypes, that's how racism is born.

Pride? If you do something exceptional, then a bit of pride is in order, and then you move on. Healthy pride comes from satisfaction with a job well done. It comes from within you. You did something good, you rewarded yourself for it, and now time to do something else. Don't live for it. The applause of others doesn't matter unless applause is what you were looking for and not the goodness of the act itself. Applause is a rare commodity for everyone.

Being proud of a state or condition, something you were born with, is narcissism. Virtue is what you do and not what you are.

Work to let go of that anger and accept the world as it is. Change the things you can, adapt to what you cannot, and know the difference. Life will treat you more kindly. You may find contentment, which is far more enduring then a jolt of endorphins.

 

[andrew-notfunny]

What I am hearing is black-and-white thinking. NT and NDs are just people on a spectrum. The two groups fade into each other, rather like colors fade into each other in a rainbow. Saying "NTs this" and "NDs that" is lazy thinking.

You're right (I would guess), so sorry if I didn't consider that completely.

Humans like to group people into "us and them" because we evolved in a tribal environment where it makes evolutionary sense, both because your troop shares more of your genes and the other guys compete for resources.

People like to categorize everything, I'm pretty sure. Are you refering to "Us VERSUS Them" as in the opposition of two groups with conflicted interest, even if the conflict is not rooted in something important or real?

There are plenty of despicable NDs out there. There are plenty of NTs who hold nothing against you because of the abstract notion of autism. If you force other people to fit into negative stereotypes, that's how racism is born.

Yes, everybody has a personality beyond these labels, I'm not disputing that.

Pride? If you do something exceptional, then a bit of pride is in order, and then you move on. Healthy pride comes from satisfaction with a job well done. It comes from within you. You did something good, you rewarded yourself for it, and now time to do something else.

What should I accomplish beyond getting accepted by NTs in this context? What's my "job" here? This makes it sound like as if I tried nothing.
Or maybe I just don't get this part.

Don't live for it. The applause of others doesn't matter unless applause is what you were looking for and not the goodness of the act itself. Applause is a rare commodity for everyone.

When the good of the act is left constantly unmentioned, it feels like as if it never mattered. Yeah, maybe I do look for a little "applause" sometimes, even unintentionally. Is it a crime or something? A rare commodity is still better than a non-existent one.

Being proud of a state or condition, something you were born with, is narcissism. Virtue is what you do and not what you are.

Now I do think I genuinely have black and white thinking here, which needs to be adressed if I want to improve away from it. When I wrote this thread, I suddenly fell from a state of self-hatred into a state of overvaluing myself.

Work to let go of that anger and accept the world as it is. Change the things you can, adapt to what you cannot, and know the difference. Life will treat you more kindly.

I'm not ready to accept it just yet. I have the urge to overthink. I cannot try to see the world for what it is without falling into a deeper depressive, resentful state again. This is illustrated by the very things I said in the beginnings of this thread.

You may find contentment, which is far more enduring then a jolt of endorphins.

I haven't been content for years now. What you are advising probably works. I'm just unable to follow it.
Thanks for the response anyways.
I tried not to be mean or anything here so don't read my lines in a tone like that when considering them.
Again, I just try to get by somehow.

 

[Suzanne]

There are "neurotypicals" I know that are amazing and lol what do we find out, that somewhere along the line, they are neurodiverse and why we get on!

Neurotypicals exhaust me. I do not understand their language and they do not want to try and help; they expect us to understand their language.

Someone I know said fairly recently. It is about time you realise you are in the neurotypical world and learn to get on with us. I responded. Since I was born an aspie, this means I HAVE tried ALL MY LIFE to understand and get on, but I see NO EVIDENCE of the same courtesy.

It comes down to pain laziness.

 

[Au Naturel]

Are you refering to "Us VERSUS Them" as in the opposition of two groups with conflicted interest, even if the conflict is not rooted in something important or real?

Especially when the difference is trivial. People get violent in asserting their differences despite having far more in common. Freud called this "the pathology of small differences."

When the good of the act is left constantly unmentioned, it feels like as if it never mattered.

That is only true if it didn't really matter to you.

I do "good" things because I think that good things ought to be done, and if I see someone better off because of it, that's very rewarding. I see someone drop money, and I'll point it out to them. I hold doors open for strangers at a restaurant, esp. the elderly or disabled or people carrying a load. I try to be courteous around strangers - please and thank you and all that. A polite person might thank me, and that's nice, but not why I did it. I think it is a matter of empathy.

There is nothing wrong with seeking applause, but understand you have become an actor on a stage. I've done a lot of that, too. Because improv is really tough, actors usually follow a script carefully calculated for applause.

I suddenly fell from a state of self-hatred into a state of overvaluing myself.

That's not a fall. That's called climbing up.

You can't overvalue yourself. You are the most important thing in your life. (Unhealthy narcissism is imagining other people need to share that opinion.) If you value yourself, you do good things for yourself. What you shouldn't do is get upset that other people disagree about your value. You probably disagree with their estimation of their own value. Just something to accept and move on.

I'd strongly advise some kind of therapy. I think Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is the best of the current lot. Failing that, you would do well to study philosophy. Stoicism is good; Epicureanism is less common, but I think better. There's a lot to be gained from Zen Buddhism.

 

[Atrapa Almas]

Lowering NTs wont make you rise.

If you have stuff you want to change or improve about yourself, do it.

Thinking bad about "Them" and good about "Us" is a wrong shortcut to the self-work you seem to want to do.

NTs cant stop being like they are as NDs cant stop being like they are. The world is like it is. The only person you can change is yourself.

 

[andrew-notfunny]

That is only true if it didn't really matter to you.

But it does.

I do "good" things because I think that good things ought to be done, and if I see someone better off because of it, that's very rewarding. I see someone drop money, and I'll point it out to them. I hold doors open for strangers at a restaurant, esp. the elderly or disabled or people carrying a load. I try to be courteous around strangers - please and thank you and all that. A polite person might thank me, and that's nice, but not why I did it. I think it is a matter of empathy.

I do that too. But when others do things for me I felt as if it's much harder for them, like I'm a burden or something.
So it's my bad experience again...

There is nothing wrong with seeking applause, but understand you have become an actor on a stage. I've done a lot of that, too. Because improv is really tough, actors usually follow a script carefully calculated for applause.

Maybe I don't need to say that I don't want to be an actor in my life for applause.
I have no script.

That's not a fall. That's called climbing up.

Well, I wouldn't have posted here if it felt like that.

You can't overvalue yourself. You are the most important thing in your life. (Unhealthy narcissism is imagining other people need to share that opinion.) If you value yourself, you do good things for yourself. What you shouldn't do is get upset that other people disagree about your value. You probably disagree with their estimation of their own value. Just something to accept and move on.

But then I can just solve this by calling them wrong, right? Which of course leads to another direction...
Not really a solution then?
Narcissism can also just come from just ignorance in my opinion, without "getting upset" or "wanting others to share the opinion", which might be the most dangerous form of it in my eyes.

I'd strongly advise some kind of therapy. I think Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is the best of the current lot.

Yes. I need something.

Failing that, you would do well to study philosophy.

I mean... I did fail Cognitive Behavioral Therapy with one psychologist. Hopefully I will try it again with the one I have now.
Philosophy, huh. I hope I'll have patience for that one.

Stoicism is good; Epicureanism is less common, but I think better. There's a lot to be gained from Zen Buddhism.

I'll check if that's true or not once I get to those.

 

[Hypnalis]

I'm not ready to accept it just yet. I have the urge to overthink. I cannot try to see the world for what it is without falling into a deeper depressive, resentful state again.

What are you actually trying to achieve? (regarding the issue(s) that caused you to write the first post of the thread)

My guess is that you're in the process of trying to resolve something that's induced a state of "cognitive dissonance".

If so, it will resolve itself one way or another, but probably not in the best possible way.
It's better to face the root cause if you can (but it's not as easy to do as it is to write it