Im curious if female aspies consider themselves "hyper logical"?

[Larisa]

I see.
I can explain by words what many people do not bother to realize and verbalize in their done choices - but all people behave as reasonably and self-protecting as they learnt by their experience.
You started the topic that men and women think 'differently'.
I noticed no difference: thinking of every human is limited by their carefully studied social role.
But the limits of 'women' role are overall laughed at (even though a woman gets punishments from her childhood for overstepping these boundaries) and the limits of 'men' role is denied - even though they forbid men to be reasonable ('man should be bold and agressive like a gorilla at slightest excuse') and self-awaring ('man should be a conquerer and has to think only of 'prizes' regardless the cost).
It's the entirely artificial, unnatural painful 'shrinking' of real living women and the similar unnatural painful 'inflating' of real living men.
All people adjust to survive and to keep appearance of their 'fitting' to the existing system.
Would you give logical test to the people while they are being tortured?
Hardly, for such a testing would not give the real results: these people would have give other answers if they were not in pain.

 

[Mia]

What's also interesting is that you both live in St. Petersburg's, on different sides of the world. @Larisa and @Azul-Infinito И, похоже, хорошо ладят.

Oh, it seems that you already know this. (⊙.⊙(◉̃_᷅◉)⊙.⊙)

 

[Azul-Infinito]

There are several threads here on gender, and i have learned a lot. I think we have all been victimized in some way or form, and in most societies women have been victimized far more than men. Men are inflated and women are made to shrink. I get it. This is happened since the beginning of time.

Would you give logical test to the people while they are being tortured?
Hardly, for such a testing would not give the real results: these people would have give other answers if they were not in pain.

You are basically saying that this cant be accurately measured, because women are under a constant state of distress from being made to "shrink" . Maybe you are right, i cant say.

I will say one thing, and i wont get into it anymore, because it will shut down the post.
I do think men and women have some innate neurological differences. To say that men and women's brains are identical would be a Darwinian miracle . (Sorry to repeat myself). I also think that a society that says gender roles are a man made social construct ,and both genders are exactly the same are losing something in the process. Both genders lose in a society that says we are exactly the same. But you can respect the differences between men and women , without subjugating or disrespecting them.

Nearly all societies are patriarical, and from what i know about Russia, this is very true there.

 

[granolaturtle]

yet another thread where female auties get treated like some strange mythical creature

 

[Azul-Infinito]

I dont think that is a fair assessment at all! I dont have strong feelings about gender one way or the other. Im just was wondering if gender made a difference in ASD traits. Im just trying to defend myself here.

I think the only way I'm going to make it in this chat room is if i never talk about anything that involves politics, gender, race, religion or anything controversial. I guess thats what ill do from now on, because i honestly do feel like we understand each other in here and i don't want to be a pariah. So, i will keep things uber PC from now on.

 

[Larisa]

I do think men and women have some innate neurological differences. To say that men and women's brains are identical would be a Darwinian miracle . (Sorry to repeat myself). I also think that a society that says gender roles are a man made social construct ,and both genders are exactly the same are losing something in the process. Both genders lose in a society that says we are exactly the same. But you can respect the differences between men and women , without subjugating or disrespecting them.

I respect your opinion even though I can't understand the fear 'people are all identical to each other exept for artificially taught gender roles'.
I think every person is unique - what similar for all the people is the capability to feel pain and to be afraid of being hurt.
According to my observations everything else is specific for every person.
Well, that's not the point of the topic, so I move from that aspect as well.

What I really want to understand: what is "black or white logic"?

A fact has no meaning outside the certain stated conditions of its measuring - like atmospheric pressure.
Water boils (and wax melts, I guess) at much lower temperature on the top of a mountain.
That statement: "it is scientifically a FACT that wax melts at a temperatures of 130-160F" - would become false...

I can't think of examples of absolute facts.
I can't even say as an absolute fact: "Women are humans with uterus" because I know that some genetical women were born without uterus or had it removed as a part of the medical treatment of cancer. Who are they, then?
I do acknowledge that men and women have difference in DNA, but some humans are born as 'chimera' and may not even be aware that the cell of their bodies are mixture of two people's (sometimes even - of different sexes) DNA codes...
I think that is important to admit all living people as humans but the most of people around me tell me that's only my private opinion and they have other opinions...

 

[Aspie_rin]

I thought that black and white thinking was about thinking in extremes, for example thinking that things are only good or only bad instead of neutral, mostly good but slightly bad, or mostly bad but slightly good.

 

[Larisa]

I thought that black and white thinking was about thinking in extremes, for example thinking that things are only good or only bad instead of neutral, mostly good but slightly bad, or mostly bad but slightly good.

I thought about 'good things' and 'bad things' for many years (and I worked with a psychologist as well).
"My parents died" - is it a 'good' or 'bad' thing?
It depends on what were relationships among us: my parents were abusive and I felt greatly relieved when they died.
How is it according to 'black or white' logic?

 

[Aspie_rin]

Well in that case, with black or white thinking I think you would say it's a good thing and that your parents where bad people. However in real life things are a bit more nuanced.

 

[Larisa]

However in real life things are a bit more nuanced.

So what is the sense of 'black or white' logic if it is practically unworkable in real life?

 

[Azul-Infinito]

Wow.... @Larisa you are very smart. That is a very elegant well said point.I hope this doesn't come off as me being confrontational, and you cant see me smiling, because i really enjoyed hearing your perspective. You are a worthy debater : )

Still...I think i see what's happening here. I think we are debating something completely different than the term "black and white" just in a very round about way.

I didn't consciously do this. But i I used the term "black and white" thinking because it was softer language than than saying, " i was wondering if female aspies consider themselves more rational thinkers than other NT women" That sentence just sounds bad. It in a way, implies that women normally aren't as rational thinkers as men. Which is offensive right? Im sorry, I totally regret making this post! Accept for it sparks an interesting debate.

I think you are asking the term "black and white" to mean only in absolute truths, and im not arguing that absolute truths are only found in math and science. Waters boiling (and wax?) boing point relative to elevation & barometric pressure is stil an absolute truth actually. Because it can be measured.

Maybe "black and white" is more of an American expression, like an idiom. I dont know? You can call it black and white, you can say logical, you can say rational, you can say рациональный. It's just words. You seem extremely intelligent. I think you understand what i mean by black and white thinking. Unless it is some type of American idiom, and its a language thing. I just mean, some people think very rationally and only make desicion based on the BEST facts (not absolute ones). It has been observed that some people on the autism spectrum have trouble being very rigid in their thinking, and actions. They can be hyper logical, concrete type thinkers. Is this something you've never heard before? The irony here is that you are taking the term "Black and white" too literally. And that is exactly what i thought i was talking about, or trying to.


I think sometimes we argue the subtext of things, to make a broader point.

A fact has no meaning outside the certain stated conditions of its measuring -

im adding this to my favorite quotes. It's very well said.

 

[Full Steam]

I'm wondering how much is nature not nature...

I'm male but had one quiet father and three bit female personalities, one sister and three femqle cousins. All very strong personalities.

I would say I present more as female aspie traits, and I can socialise easily even if it's unpleasant at times.

(sorry, forgot what the OP question was )

I think most people male or female are driven by emotions, and shaped by upbringing. Males must act like this, female like that.

Male vs female brain differences are not a distinct as most people think in my opinion. Check out ancient societies with warrior females for proof.

Boudicca wasn't brought up worrying about her nails.

 

[Larisa]

Wow.... @Larisa you are very smart. That is a very elegant well said point.I hope this doesn't come off as me being confrontational, and you cant see me smiling, because i really enjoyed hearing your perspective. You are a worthy debater : )

My work with the psychologist has taught me to speak up my mind, so I ask you to hear my perspective on the dialog with you.
First of all: I do understand that you meant well, I see you tried to be polite and moral.
But I have to point that your comments really looks condescending.
Please notice that I don't give my personal assessments of your person: "you're very smart", "you're a worthy debater" I analyze the facts of your actions.
Praises like rebukes (approvals and disapprovals) are the markers of social hierarchy: a superior gives an inferior a praise 'good job!' Not the other way around.
I would like to remind that you are not my superior in any way. You and I are equals here.
Secondly, I can not take you as a rational thinker. You claim to be on words but you don't behave accordingly.
I mean: a rational person would have considered my arguments and pointed my logical flaws or gave his own reasons in defense of his position.
You did not consider my words - instead you have considered me as whole and gave me your praise (which is emotional response to the particular discussion instead of logical one).
You did not elaborate what you consider as 'black and white' logic - but you, again, gave me the praise for my efforts to converse with you logically.
I noticed by two successive events that you avoided giving me your logical answer and treating me as equal - and got to show the same emotional reaction of approval instead.
That's just statistics of your actions I analyse.

 

[Illuminatas]

We think men are logical and women are irrational because of gender stereotypes perpetuated the the NT culture. I am extremely analytical, but nuanced. I also engaged in a lot of black and white thinking when I was younger, but began to see almost everything as on a spectrum after a while. (I'm 40.) I also became more skeptical. As ND we don't always perceive gender, which is like a social mirage. It's a cultural construct that we are blind to. Therefore, a girl who collects and categorizes fossils or loves baseball cards seems to be a tomboy (or even gay), but dinosaurs and baseball are objectively cool. A boy who cries and has a lot of emotions feels like he's female (usually in a negative way). It just goes against what society expects from us as a boy or a girl. Many of my ND male friends feel "mentally female" to quote two different guys. I feel "mentally male," so I suppose gender stereotypes and expectations even seep into us. In a way, we're all actually just who we are.

 

[Diagnosed2015]

I am an extremely rational/logical thinker (input) yet I often teach people how to interpret information (assignments) creatively.

However, my "creative" writing is still extremely formal and well-thought out -- and I've come to understand that it's just a way for me to 'describe' my thinking process.

Unfortunately, I can often take something so literally it doesn't make sense -- or I don't get the implication of the question.

For example, a new neighbor and (a separate) person approached me when I moved in. They said, "We have three pieces (of something) for dinner, and there are only two of us ... would you like the third piece?"

Instead of understanding it was a gesture of friendship, my answer was, "Why did you buy three if there were only two of you?"

Of course, I was able to laugh it off as humor, but the question WAS real (to me) and just didn't make sense. There are times when things seem SO obvious to me that others don't seem to understand -- and I can only assume they are reacting emotionally instead of rationally.

My "long answer" is: Yes, female Aspies can be overly rational or black & white. A therapist once told me that I divide people into "victims and/or actual or potential predators," (which I realized was true).

I try not to do that -- but I have to change the way I "see" people in order to disregard my "internal prejudices."

 

[xudo]

I have always been very black and white, and my emotions do not come into things. To be honest I don't understand when people make decisions and the like at the behest of their emotions.

 

[FreakyZettairyouiki]

I would say this kind of black and white and emotional thinking is on a spectrum imo and I think I am more towards the black and white area. When I was younger, it was even worse but I as I grew older and more mature, I realized I couldn't think like that so I've been using my emotionl intelligence more. Funny thing is that I've been described as book smart but not street smart. That phrase stuck with me for a lonnnng time and I've even been accused of being rude by my roommates because of my introversion and lack of small talk skills yada yada. I always imagined myself as this girl that could excel on any test in school but blank out when I had to out into the real world. As I'm older that image of me isn't so solid or black and white anymore. So I have no choice now but to use less logic and more emotional intelligence to get by like the other NTs out there.

 

[Khendra]

lol, yep, I've heard this a lot, especially as I've gotten older. I used to think I was all empathetic and feeling until people told me I'm tactless and much more prone to analytic logic. My ability to apparently use logic well is even discussed in my official Aspergers psychological evaluation report.

I guess I haven't always been aware or confident in this ability because of the social stereotypes of women being more emotional or relational (generally) and because I can lose the ability to reason when angry (though I suppose that's true of most).

But yeah, I have been told by people (including guys) that I'm hyper-logical and black-and-white in my thinking, both.

 

[Datura]

I have not been diagnosed, but I would not say I am hyper logical in my thinking. I would like to think that I tend towards rationalism rather than emotion when it comes to my views though.

I recall my psychologist remarking, with apparent shock, that I was "very scientific" concerning the issue of death. I don't understand why one would be anything other than scientific. What better basis is there for belief than testing hypotheses against observations?

An other time I was working for a woman with cancer. She remarked, "You think they would have found a cure for cancer by now." I began explaining why that wasn't reasonable being as cancer actually describes thousands of individual diseases related to abnormal cell growth and that curing any one of them was exceedingly difficult. It then occurred to me that she was probably looking for emotional support and that my response was inappropriate.

Still, though I valoriz logic and tend toward it I do not believe I am necessarily better at it than others. I can also act irrationally, so I cannot say I am a perfectly logical being.

 

[Rich Gray]

[1.0] Men and woman have different priorities in troubleshooting an issue.

[1.1a] Men tend to prioritize the speed of addressing the matter at hand over social relationships.

[1.1b] A man quickly saying that 1+1=2 is how we get things done quickly, and is logical (women are also logical, see below).

[1.2] Women tend to prioritize social relationships (and input) over the speed of addressing matter at hand is how we get things done that need to be well thought out, and is logical.

[1.2b] A woman conferring with her peers over their thoughts of what the answer to 1+1 equals in order to build community is logical. The woman likely already knows her answer, but wants to include her peers in the decision making process.

[2.0] Asking others about how they got their answer is a powerful source of learning.

[2.1] The women version of troubleshooting leads towards empathy or thinking with feelings being a default setting to troubleshoot a problem before coming to a conclusion to act upon.

[2.3] The way women think is likely women do better in higher education then men. Learning how others came to an answer may ones knowledge.

[3.0] Finalizing an answer is not the same thing as thinking of an answer.

[3.1] Women THINK (or can think) of the answer at the same rate as men, but they present the answer in such a way as to make it appear (especially to boys and men) as if the answer was not thought of as quickly.

[3.2] I think this instinctual drive to place community over speed makes men think that boys are better than math, for example, then girls.

[3.3] Students are asked to raise their hands with the answer, and speed is rewarded. Boys and men thus think that they are better at math, and that girls suck at math. People do not tend to pursue areas that they think they are weak in.

[3.4] The male dominated idea in math education that speed equals understanding and/or public teacher acknowledgement and encouragement certainly hurts the field of math for women.

[3.5] This tenancy to misunderstand instinctual motive tenancies spreads to many other areas in society.

[4.0] The women version of troubleshooting may be the reason girls outperform guys in higher education.

[4.1] Being exposed to multiple troubleshooting methods may lead towards superior troubleshooting.

[4.2] Being exposed to multiple troubleshooting methods may lead towards professors concluding that you understand the material to a higher degree.

[5.0] In school I absolutely hated working in groups to solve a problem. I may have learned more if I asked others how they came to their conclusion.

[5.1] group work is slower.

[5.2] Group work may lead towards others not wanting to use my odd ideas.

-----

[A] I think it would be fair to say that testosterone hinders one’s ability to . . .
. . . think about and/or care about repercussions . . .
. . . emotionally and/or relationships . . .
. . . at some times and in some ways.