Do you often find NTs illogical or unreasonable?

[Calibar]

I have studied philosophy and logic at uni and I think NTs can be just as logical/reasonable when taught. The logic we use even in philosophy is pretty simple, anyone can master it. So it's likely not a matter of capacity. I think that likely Aspies find logic and reasoning more appealing and more useful given our lack of social "common sense" in interacting with the NT majority. I know Aspies who are pretty unreasonable too.

Let me hypothesize. Aspies have poor social skills and can only get ahead by honesty and actual achievement. Logic/reasoning are critical for honesty and achievement. Aspies find it more profitable to be logical/reasonable. (By reason I mean informal logic). NTs, especially the socially successful kind can get by just as easily by flattery and other dishonest means, not available to us. They learn through experience that often, appealing to the emotions of others is more important than begin reasonable. They invest their time accordingly and become better at wooing people rather than talking sense. I am just saying they are more likely to do so as they have more reason to.

 

[Tyrantus1212]

Many NT's often think of my logic as making no sense - while I always think the opposite (well yeah, it's my logic). I follow my logic because I don't take chances in life (and most importantly, WITH life). I don't rule things out just because NT's say it's extremely unlikely - because in terms of my logic, unlikely is not 0 percent. There have been stories of unlikely hapless deaths happening to good people. This is why I went to get rabies shots after seeing a couple of red dots on my leg; people might say "extremely unlikely", but I say that it still COULD be a bat bite, and I will not take any chances no matter how astronomical. I don't live in a wooded area by the way.

Another example - I had a feeling of "impending doom" out of nowhere one day. Most might say panic attack, but how do they know it's not a heart attack? They're not doctors. That's also a bit of "my logic" right there - you're not God and you're not a doctor so how can you be sure? So I went to get a cardiac exam which included a calcium heart scan and various lab analyses, specifically cardiac lab analyses. I was 25 at the time, not too long ago - sure people would say "25 is too young to have a heart attack", but I've read stories of people having cardiac events in their 20's. Right there, on the internet. Same goes for colon cancer.

The cardiac exams all came back OK, and the rabies shots were right on schedule - but retrospectively how could I have POSSIBLY known, not being a cardiologist, that it wasn't a heart attack? Even if there are many more likely causes for that particular symptom? How could my parents, or coworkers, or anyone who's not a cardiologist be "sure" it's not a heart attack as well? How could any of us know that the dots weren't formed on my leg by some bat while I stood outside on my lunch break? Bats CAN bite through clothes and they CAN bite without humans noticing it. The pattern of the 2 dots matched one for a bat bite.

It's extremely hard for people to persuade or reassure me about something and that makes me come off as very stubborn. I just do what I think I must to survive and help others survive - or even when it's not a life/death situation, I still don't leave something alone just because it's "unlikely". I'm one of the most persistent people on the planet, and this logic all takes the driving wheel (along with my OCD - I am extremely plan, structure and routine oriented).

 

[Mia]

No, untrue in the sense that Aspies rarely understand how other people function emotionally, as they attempt to figure it out logically. Emotion is very often neither rational or logical. But, emotion colours logic and rationality. That's what's perplexing to Aspies, as they attempt to understand people with logic.

I've encountered and known many people in my life, Aspie and NT. I've seen Aspies doing and saying irrational things and NT's as well. NT's can be logical and emotional and rational as well. It's more a function of age and understanding.

Logic can be a way for Aspies to understand things in the world, but it's also a barrier in it's own way to comprehending human nature, and the fallacies of disordered thinking. When something is not understood logic is used to dissect it, but a formulaic manner of thinking disregards concepts and ideas outside of it. Often in debate and argumentation it's used as a weapon to win, to inflate the ego, rather than to make things clear. Which is it's true purpose.

 

[Thursday]

When NTs want to discuss something, it's not always about actual logic. There are times when all they want is someone to agree with them regardless of logic.

Which is why scientific backing often doesn't mean anything when it comes to what people actually believe and practice.

 

[Tyrantus1212]

Ok, thanks for explaining. I guess the issue we have with our son Aaron is that although he likes rules, he cannot make exceptions without getting upset. He expects a rule to always be a rule. Like if we say, "Aaron we have to leave the park at 8pm," he expects that to happen. But, there was a day it started raining hard at around 7:50 pm, and he wanted to stay ten more minutes, saying "That was the rule." Maybe this is just his literal side speaking. We do support him for following rules, so we never get upset at him for such. It just is very hard for him to deviate from rules. Sometimes this will work in his favor, and sometimes not.

I know how that feels. Cannot stand to deviate from plans, and it just kills me whenever someone else does or forces me to.

 

[AtomicBlondie]

Short answer to the question raised-yes. More-so though, I tend to feel as if NTs can be inefficient--constantly wasting time on idle chit-chat, voicing the same opinions over and again, rehashing disapproven claims or conclusions, etc. I find that most meetings are unnecessary and rarely result in anything new or productive. NTs, especially the extroverts, really like to talk through things whereas I prefer to just get things done and out of the way.

 

[Jet Weiss]

Yes, I do find NTs illogical and unreasonable.
NTs always think I am an idiot when I try to reason with them or use facts.
I had an NT classmate who would constantly argue with me and call BS on me every time I approached him with logic or reason, and would always make sarcastic comments about me being stupid.
My dad's NT "friends," if you could even call them that, did the same thing, and always made the claim that my dad was an idiot and was "mentally challenged" so therefore the points he made were "invalid."

 

[Suzanne]

Let's say a rule is, "When we turn on the fan, it blows cold air." Does logical thought mean we should expect that to always occur?" If past experiences have said sometimes the house fan did not turn on, because of a faulty wire, or that the air conditioning fan in the car by mistake blows out hot air instead on hot days, then it seems not irrational to question the stated rule. Maybe I am using bad logic. I am not sure.

And to add to that, if it is extremely hot, then air conditioning bows out warm air.

 

[WereBear]

I have studied philosophy and logic at uni and I think NTs can be just as logical/reasonable when taught

I don't think any of us are saying they cannot. They just don't want to

Seriously, though, the way I see it, some people just use the psychological coping strategy of Denial way too much and far too long. That is what really upsets me, because it is causing real harm.

Now, it's not logical when a friend and I get together and swap cat stories, but it's fun and enjoyable to "share" this way. I do get that. It is the meaningless "rules" that NTs don't even think about is when I get dinged the most for thinking.

And that doesn't make any sense

 

[Ambi]

I consider myself very logical and quite reasonable, and I often have problem communicating (or arguing) with NTs.

Before anyone tells me the cliche, no I'm the "He has different opinions so I'm right and he's unreasonable" kind of people. By "logical" I meant the actual logic, the one which includes 'premises' 'conclusions' and 'If q than p if not p than not q".

The kind of argument that often occurs between me and an NT:
"If the purpose of your question was to seek truth, then you asked the wrong one because both answers lead to the same conclusion."
"But if what you just said was true, than your previous assumption couldn't possibly be true as well. Yes I know what you wanted to do but I'm telling you it's pointless!"
"If you could keep asking 'Why?' it'd create an infinite causality chain.......NO I just told you it would be infinite"
In these situations NTs usually keep holding their arguments without realizing their logical flaws, leaving me with a headache.

Do you have similar experiences? Is it my fault or Aspies are really better at logic and reasoning?

Not quite this - rather, it's as though what I am saying is simply not fitting through spaces of their filter - they then seem to misunderstand me, which is very frustrating. I think my appearance and their overall impression of me and my style of speech has way more influence over how they interpret and even *hear* what it is that I am saying - rather than just listening to the words and not assuming more or less than that. As for me - I just listen to the words they are saying, and thereby seem to misunderstand them - but it's confusing, because I am listening to what is actually coming out of their mouths. And I don't mean misunderstanding idioms or figures of speech - what they are trying to convey sometimes only partially matches up with what they are actually saying. I'm thinking of just not bothering talking much to most people about anything intellectual

 

[WereBear]

I think my appearance and their overall impression of me and my style of speech has way more influence over how they interpret and even *hear* what it is that I am saying - rather than just listening to the words and not assuming more or less than that.

That is a great insight that I also understand; especially as a woman who was raised in a misogynistic culture: which is one strongly prejudiced against women.

I could say something and be utterly ignored. Then, a male could say the exact same thing and it would be welcomed as GREAT. And it is possible his automatic filter so excludes women that he actually thought he thought what I just said.

To my knowledge, only NTs can so filter input that they deny actual reality.

 

[Calibar]

Rules can serve a purpose though. NTs may be happier with their rules than without them. If they wish to maximize happiness then it is logical for them to hold on to those rules. The same rules can make us unhappy which is why it would be illogical for us to engage in them if we seek happiness. Was it Hume that said: reasoning will always be a salve to emotion. That is quite right and what makes some people happy does not make others happy

I don't think any of us are saying they cannot. They just don't want to

Seriously, though, the way I see it, some people just use the psychological coping strategy of Denial way too much and far too long. That is what really upsets me, because it is causing real harm.

Now, it's not logical when a friend and I get together and swap cat stories, but it's fun and enjoyable to "share" this way. I do get that. It is the meaningless "rules" that NTs don't even think about is when I get dinged the most for thinking.

And that doesn't make any sense

 

[WereBear]

NTs may be happier with their rules than without them.

I think we would all be cool with that. Why won't they extend the same favor to us?

I think this is the great question of our era: we'll be okay with you following your own rules, but when you start trying to impose them on everybody, that's not right.

 

[HermanHesse]

NTs drive me up a wall sometimes when I use statistics and reason to try and win an argument, I actually had a friend turn around and tell me I had "no compassion" and "thought about it strangely" when I was debating her once. I think she mocked me as being dumb and bigoted a few times also. People like that make me want to bang my head against a wall.

So are you a libertarian or are you just knowledgable about basic economics

 

[Blast off]

You can pry my flawed ideas out of my cold,dead hands!!! Lol, I think NTs and people on the spectrum both hold onto flawed ideas/ideals. It's part of the human condition, but I do agree that people on spectrum are more logical and definitely aware of their true surroundings more than NTs. To a point.

 

[Calibar]

I would agree to that. People should be able to live according to their own rules as long as they bother no one.

If I had to guess, I would say NT human nature makes it desirable for them to impose their own social standards on others. Let's face it, we can also be pretty cruel if we try to force ourselves to become social.

Is this logical or illogical? The way people use the word 'logic' is distinct from what it means in the discipline of logic. The discipline of logic deals with the rules of inference from a simple set of axioms (e.g. principle of noncontradiction). These cannot tell you anything useful unless you input extra-logical premises. These extra-logical premises are often our desires and our observations and logic by itself could never prove or disprove them (would be like trying to use math alone, with no observations to predict the weather). Then we use (very simple) logic to deduce conclusions form these (this is an argument). When the logic is used correctly (i.e. the rules are followed and the axioms are not violated) the argument is valid.

It could be that be that many NTs desire social cohesion and prefer that others think like them or otherwise be ostracized. As to why they might desire this, likely it helped us survive in the jungles we evolved and the ones who had this trait spread there genes further, passing them onto us. Logic cannot tell us whether we should satisfy this desire unless we use other desires as premises which might override this (i.e. we value them more). It could be that for NTs there are no overriding desires and therefore herd mentality makes them happier. If they desire to be happier it would follow logically that they should do it, provided my assumptions are correct.

I the general sense, 'logic' is used by people to classify behaviour that has the same goals as theirs and means of attaining it are deemed likely to succeed. E.g. someone I knew was a pathological liar and a confidence trickster. I considered him illogical because the things he did seemed to serve no purpose that I valued. For him, simply trying to lie to people might have been very pleasing and my honesty might have seemed illogical as it served no purpose that he valued. So, the way 'logic' is normally used tends to ignore relativism. As for this person I am describing, I have not met him in years, but I hear he is mid to high ranking with a rather prestigious company. He had mediocre intelligence, no intellect of any kind, poor work ethic, was a fool and underachiever in just about every way. Oh, and did I mention he was a pathological liar. And yet he made it, among the idiotic masses. Objectively, I am afraid his 'logic' is superior. I have no ill will towards him at all, but if that does not make you laugh your ass off at the idiocy of human nature I don't know what will We need a complete overhaul of our genetic code, no other way.

I think we would all be cool with that. Why won't they extend the same favor to us?

I think this is the great question of our era: we'll be okay with you following your own rules, but when you start trying to impose them on everybody, that's not right.

 

[WereBear]

It could be that be that many NTs desire social cohesion and prefer that others think like them or otherwise be ostracized.

Very true. I have also seen this vary by culture. I have lived in societies that are very harsh about imposing homogeneity, and others which are far more relaxed about it. Which I prefer

 

[Darius]

I read the comment about the fan and thought "Hell no! It's not like that!"

I don't know what is worse- NTs being illogical, me being irritated by it or the need to always react and call that out.

 

[OlLiE]

YES. However, I don't really know if they are less logical, or if their nature allows them to better judge a situation and modulate the necessity of intellectual accuracy (alleviating them of stress), or if they just have a more holistic approach to things allowing them to mix logic and emotion based on priorities allowing them to enjoy things more. Example, a walk to the train station takes 30 mins, a metro takes 10 minutes, my girlfriend suggests leaving an hour before train departure on foot , i'm happy (its planned, i have margin to allow for any potential issues that may happen underway), we don't leave an hour before, but i'm not that worried about it because i can still take the tube and have adequate buffer, however 30 minutes before she says we are leaving on foot, i am completely befuddled, upset and annoyed (i agreed to walking under the agreement that we would leave an hour before), she is still perfectly happy though and befuddled by my reaction , i feel i need to explain the logic of it all and she looks at me like i'm from pluto and can't understand why i'm getting all worked up - in essence i may be logical, but while being efficient that same need for efficiency stresses me when i have to things with anyone else and reduces my ability to enjoy things <> while she is not rigidly logical but much happier and able to enjoy random things that may pop up <> i'm interested in the destination, she is interested in the journey

 

[OlLiE]

YES (part 2 ) - people have also pointed out to me that i am incredibly uncomfortable to talk to, i am able to detect in conversations how people are using words and emotional arguments to deal with their cognitive dissonance and justify their deviation from logic to arrive where they want to be, basically i detect verbal manipulation and the use of emotional arguments to justify deviating from the logical process and reasoning. I then proceed to point out every occurrence and sanitise the conversation to its logical components, basically holding up a mirror of flaws and weaknesses to the person i'm talking to. I don't mind that people make emotional decisions, i do have a problem with people pretending to themselves that they are being logical. Make the logical reasoning, decide whether you are emotionally happy with that course of action, if not accept the emotional decision INCLUDING all the logical downsides to it. This situation often occurs when people find a specific course of action easy for themselves but actually want the outcome to be that of a more difficult and demanding course of action that they don't want to do, cognitive dissonance.

Finally, if being conformist means following the human herd, why would anyone of intelligence want to be conformist considering that most people on the world are short term, shallow, consumerist people. I really do not consider the herd mentality a benchmark for what i should be thinking or feeling.