"Autistic" or "Person with Autism"?

[Hypnalis]

IMO "Aspie" still works much better when I self-categorizing to NTs.
They generally assume that both my general intelligence and my communication skills are within NT norms (the acceptable ranges for both are quite wide).

"Autism", while arguably more accurate, doesn't have that effect.

If I wanted people to treat me differently I'd switch.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Thanks a lot for the interesting and stimulating replies, everyone!

Looking back I am not sure I was clear enough.

I am not referring to the terms one may use to describe ones self. Indeed, I am happy to describe myself as autistic - I wander around with an enamel badge saying "I'm autistic, not rude" and find it quite appropriate.

The distinction I am trying to arrive at is "with which group do I associate myself?".

For me, my answer is 'none', specifically because I don't wish to belong to an 'in-group' with the implication of an 'out-group'. I prefer to identify myself instead as a world citizen i.e. to connect to everyone.

That is why I would prefer 'a person with autism', because autism doesn't define who I am, though it clearly impacts everything I think and do.

I do not feel comfortable with the whole 'autist vs NT' thing at all. For me, we learn and progress more by discarding such labels and learning from each other, than creating two camps and 'othering' each other.

The thing for me is that I would like to feel as a world citizen and connect with everyone, but I just don't, as much as I try. I always wanted to fit in, but it resulted in me feeling lonely and misunderstood. So after getting my diagnosis, I was glad to feel to finally belong somewhere. So for me, I identify as part of the "neurodivergent" group, for me including mostly people with autism and ADHD. I usually connect better with those people and don't feel so alien. Identifying with a group helps me to learnt to accept myself, too.
Edit: It's the same with my being ace. After having felt so weird, alien and like I don't fit in for so long, I was so glad to discover that I'm not weird, traumatized or sexually incapable, I'm just asexual, that I embraced belonging to the asexual community, too.

As for the terms, I don't really mind. I usually use "autistic", "on the spectrum", or "spectral" (don't know if that's a word, but my partner and I made it up and now one of my other autistic friend uses it, too). We use "spectral" among each other to describe certain behaviors or vibes people give off, like "this colleague of mine seems a bit spectral", meaning, we get the feeling they might be in some way neurodivergent but we don't know for sure. I don't use Asperger's, but since I work in medicine and still learnt the term Asperger's as a completely common one during my studies, I don't mind it, either. I use it to explain myself to people who are not really familiar with autism, since they mostly know the word Asperger's ("I'm autistic level 1, that's like what used to be Asperger's"). I know that's not entirely correct, but it makes it easier for the people around me to understand it.

I don't want to offend anyone by calling them something they don't like, but as much as I try, I simply forget what people want to be referred as if they're not close friends whom I see often.

 

[v4169sgr]

Wonderful seeing all the new replies rolling in ... appreciate the perspectives, and the diversity is beautiful

As with Neri, I've never in my life felt the need to "fit in", even though growing up (during times when ASD was not understood at all) I was definitely one of a kind and stood out a mile. I suppose on a deeper emotional level (some would say 'spiritual') I've always felt a connection with others, even those who were taking out their insecurities on me. But of course, I rarely found ways to express that connection that actually worked. Even when I tried, my attempts were wildly misunderstood.

For me, it's the "emperor's new clothes" thing: I see the defects and deficiencies in wider society - the meaningless chasing after, the need to belong, the 'othering', the agreed madness that our social rituals are - for what they are. Ultimately I feel there is no need for any of that - to the extend they are carried out - though I can certainly understand why others attach so much importance to them.

I wonder if the deep-seated need to 'belong' with a group is associated in some way with a lack of self-love, meaning self-validation, in the widest and purest sense. Unconditional love of who we are, not narcissism.

 

[Hypnalis]

It would make sense that humans have an innate wish to belong to an extended family or small tribe.
That kind of social organization predates Homo Sapiens.

There are situations where that's not possible in modern societies. IMO there are potential downsides to following the natural impulse without careful consideration.

Being a member of a "good" group is usually a good thing, but there are "bad" groups.

 

[v4169sgr]

It would make sense that humans have an innate wish to belong to an extended family or small tribe.
That kind of social organization predates Homo Sapiens.

There are situations where that's not possible in modern societies. IMO there are potential downsides to following the natural impulse without careful consideration.

Being a member of a "good" group is usually a good thing, but there are "bad" groups.

Agreed. One aspect that is often missed by cultural anthropologists and historians is that humanity's culture as a whole is undergoing evolution ... from small groups through large groups towards a planetary identity.

In this day and age we are collectively and individually challenged to shift our focus from 'small circles' to 'larger circles' in a process called 'widening the circle of unity'.

The main challenge facing humanity right now is how to learn to live with one another peacefully and positively (not just 'toleration') globally, as well as locally.

 

[Hypnalis]

@v4169sgr

Did you see the post I wrote and then deleted earlier, about another angle on groups and belonging?

 

[v4169sgr]

@v4169sgr

Did you see the post I wrote and then deleted earlier, about another angle on groups and belonging?

I don't think I did - I'd be happy to read it if you would like to re-post - or, perhaps, DM if you don't feel comfortable.

 

[Neri]

Wonderful seeing all the new replies rolling in ... appreciate the perspectives, and the diversity is beautiful

As with Neri, I've never in my life felt the need to "fit in", even though growing up (during times when ASD was not understood at all) I was definitely one of a kind and stood out a mile. I suppose on a deeper emotional level (some would say 'spiritual') I've always felt a connection with others, even those who were taking out their insecurities on me. But of course, I rarely found ways to express that connection that actually worked. Even when I tried, my attempts were wildly misunderstood.

For me, it's the "emperor's new clothes" thing: I see the defects and deficiencies in wider society - the meaningless chasing after, the need to belong, the 'othering', the agreed madness that our social rituals are - for what they are. Ultimately I feel there is no need for any of that - to the extend they are carried out - though I can certainly understand why others attach so much importance to them.

I wonder if the deep-seated need to 'belong' with a group is associated in some way with a lack of self-love, meaning self-validation, in the widest and purest sense. Unconditional love of who we are, not narcissism.

I have long used the analogy of The Emperor Wears No Clothes. So many ways to apply it! I'm fortunate that I have one friend, close friend, actually my lover, who can see quite a few of the things I see, otherwise it's a lonely life of seeing a lot and having no one to share it with.
Yes, I don't need the group, having survived this long without it, but I do like having a friend. Groups I have a bit of distrust in, "group think" I don't feel comfortable with, in general.

 

[v4169sgr]

I have long used the analogy of The Emperor Wears No Clothes. So many ways to apply it! I'm fortunate that I have one friend, close friend, actually my lover, who can see quite a few of the things I see, otherwise it's a lonely life of seeing a lot and having no one to share it with.
Yes, I don't need the group, having survived this long without it, but I do like having a friend. Groups I have a bit of distrust in, "group think" I don't feel comfortable with, in general.

Understood. Having friends who understand is not only nice, I think it is essential. I think we can return the favour too

I think it's possible to 'identify inclusively', which for me means validating and treasuring all the characteristics that make me and you unique special and precious; valuing equally those characteristics in other people; and yet not identifying specifically and only with that group i.e. depending on the future existence of the group vs 'outsiders' for one's well being.

It is for that reason that I prefer to avoid discussions of 'auties vs NTs' etc, or even suggestions that 'the world is not made for people like us'.

I think the challenge for us in this day is to ultimately identify with the widest circle we can manage and connect with all of humanity, irrespective of our many and diverse specific identities.

 

[Levitator]

I would describe myself as a person with autism, and not an autistic person.

Why is this important to me?

Well first of all I don't feel that who I am is defined by autism. Sure, it has certainly coloured my entire being and my world view. But I don't wish to be defined as being 'in the group of' autistic persons.

Put it another way, neuodivergency is not my 'in-group'.

At the same time, this doesn't mean that I think autism is something that happens to people. I would not wish to communicate that autism and personhood are somehow separate.

I would prefer not to be identified with any particular group, whether based on culture, nationality, politics, or ways of thinking. Instead, I'd prefer to identify myself with everyone else, with no exceptions. A world citizen, if you will.

That means, because I don't feel that I want to belong to an 'in-group', then no 'groups' are 'out-groups' for me either.

Please feel free to share your perspectives here. Speaking for myself only, I'd be glad to hear them and will appreciate them for what they are. Diversity is beautiful.

I hear what you're saying, and I understand your intent, but I'm here specifically because normal people can't stand me. In fact, it never dawned on me how substantially different I am until I traveled in a foreign country, and I realized that even across cultures, people persist in being rude and exclusive towards me, and in looking through or around me, instead of at me. They will disregard a greeting and continue walking by as if I don't exist. This is to the point that it took me fifteen years between relationships, and that girl turned out to be a paralytic (incidentally with an awesome personality). She gave me tremendous respect for the disabled, and I decided to just accept I'm not like everyone else either, and maybe I would meet more people like her if I humbled myself and identified with other people whose cognition simply does not work the same.

What you are saying is very idealistic, and I agree with those ideals. The problem is that the world sadly does not care what we think, and they are the ones who create enclaves by race, religion, gender, or in this case, cognition.

 

[Levitator]

I hear what you're saying, and I understand your intent, but I'm here specifically because normal people can't stand me. In fact, it never dawned on me how substantially different I am until I traveled in a foreign country, and I realized that even across cultures, people persist in being rude and exclusive towards me, and in looking through or around me, instead of at me. They will disregard a greeting and continue walking by as if I don't exist. This is to the point that it took me fifteen years between relationships, and that girl turned out to be a paralytic (incidentally with an awesome personality). She gave me tremendous respect for the disabled, and I decided to just accept I'm not like everyone else either, and maybe I would meet more people like her if I humbled myself and identified with other people whose cognition simply does not work the same.

What you are saying is very idealistic, and I agree with those ideals. The problem is that the world sadly does not care what we think, and

It sounds like what you're saying is that you don't want to be part of some sort of autism clique, and that was also my first concern arriving here. I agree with that. I think this is the key distinction; I'm not here to set myself apart from others, I'm here because others set me apart (through exclusion). So if we're an enclave (of rejects, incidentally), it's because society caused it, and not by your preference or mine. I find people totally unreachable, so I'm here to find reachable people, not to define my identity.

I think it's nice to know thyself, and love that person. It makes it really easy to forgive others for likewise being weirdos, and you get a chance to meet people in a space of mutual tolerance. I'm not here to wave a flag, and announce to the world that I'm weird and I'm proud (even though I am). I don't need to sew a patch on my jacket. This is about hiding in the weirdo cave and making friends.

 

[v4169sgr]

@Levitator Thanks for the two replies.

In my experience cultural change happens through elevated conversations, and through practice of principles. By not defining myself through a particular group - though I am reaching out to the group and can connect to the group - I am demonstrating that I do not fear and thus do not need a group to stand on my own two feet.

At the same time I truly appreciate the chance to 'speak' with people who are cognitively similar - there isn't such a wide gap in assumptions, and it feels more of a 'safe space' to discuss certain facets of life.

 

[Levitator]

Yep. I don't need Autism Team to represent me to the rest of the world, or provide me with an identity. What I do need is to find people where it doesn't seem like we only talk at each other until they can't stand me, they smirk, and wander away in the belief that they just wasted their time talking to manikin. It's like our words pass around each other, until they get frustrated and decide I'm an idiot, and it happens very, very consistently. So, where do I find people congregated who offer better chances of success? Well, here, for starters, I hope.

 

[Levitator]

@Levitator Thanks for the two replies.

In my experience cultural change happens through elevated conversations, and through practice of principles. By not defining myself through a particular group - though I am reaching out to the group and can connect to the group - I am demonstrating that I do not fear and thus do not need a group to stand on my own two feet.

At the same time I truly appreciate the chance to 'speak' with people who are cognitively similar - there isn't such a wide gap in assumptions, and it feels more of a 'safe space' to discuss certain facets of life.

I'll add that I have totally given up on cultural change. What I have realized is that I never knew myself, much less anyone else. To me, it's such a startling discovery that people very consistently perceive me as someone not worth talking to, to the point where being perceived as socially disabled would be a step up. If I have no idea what people see or hear when I speak, why bother? I'm ready to retire from planet earth, and try to find some friends I can hug every now and then, and have coffee with, but not if hugs spook them.

 

[Greening]

This is interesting to start thinking about. Groups and which groups I belong to or not. I belong to various groups, but in all those groups we only have, for instance, autism in common. I can feel like a complete stranger around some people and, the opposite, very rarely though, feel like I have found someone I truly can bond with, and it has nothing to do with what we have in common. What it has to do with is empathy. If a person is willing and able, and actually enjoy it as a part of learning in life, to shift perspectives, turn them around, and listen, instead of hearing which is something else, then we have that in common. I can also recognize certain things because someone else has autism, or is autistic, or what someone prefer to call it, but it does not mean, I feel a bond. It just means there is recognition, some breakdown of being alone in that field of life.

I also feel like saying that I have met humans and thought that parallel worlds, universes, are definitely a thing, because I felt like a alien in their presence. Another perspective is that I have met a cat for instance, with whom I had a deep bond. I felt more connected with that cat than with a lot of humans I have ever met. Because he cared, and I cared.

 

[Levitator]

This is interesting to start thinking about. Groups and which groups I belong to or not. I belong to various groups, but in all those groups we only have, for instance, autism in common. I can feel like a complete stranger around some people and, the opposite, very rarely though, feel like I have found someone I truly can bond with, and it has nothing to do with what we have in common. What it has to do with is empathy. If a person is willing and able, and actually enjoy it as a part of learning in life, to shift perspectives, turn them around, and listen, instead of hearing which is something else, then we have that in common. I can also recognize certain things because someone else has autism, or is autistic, or what someone prefer to call it, but it does not mean, I feel a bond. It just means there is recognition, some breakdown of being alone in that field of life.

I also feel like saying that I have met humans and thought that parallel worlds, universes, are definitely a thing, because I felt like a alien in their presence. Another perspective is that I have met a cat for instance, with whom I had a deep bond. I felt more connected with that cat than with a lot of humans I have ever met. Because he cared, and I cared.

Bizarrely, I have a diagnosed friend who said that he felt a spiritual connection to his cat. It's not that out there, because I always thought that cat was special. He was so friendly and lovable. Kitty died of diabetes many years ago.

 

[AuAL]

Bizarrely, I have a diagnosed friend who said that he felt a spiritual connection to his cat. It's not that out there, because I always thought that cat was special. He was so friendly and lovable. Kitty died of diabetes many years ago.

I met a cat at a relative’s house just recently that gave strong signs of being very friendly toward me, at first meeting. But then, maybe cats are autistic:

 

[Levitator]

:3

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

. Another perspective is that I have met a cat for instance, with whom I had a deep bond. I felt more connected with that cat than with a lot of humans I have ever met. Because he cared, and I cared.

I have plants I feel more bonded with than the vast majority of humans.

 

[Levitator]

I have plants I feel more bonded with than the vast majority of humans.

lol. I'm struggling to crawl out from precisely that kind of bitterness, but I don't blame you at all. Incidentally, I'm sure they treat us that way first. They think we're ghoulish or mechanistic, which would be sort of like a vegetable. Oh, well. Like I said, I reach out. They walk away. I feel at peace, because I was the one reaching.