The purpose(s) of talking...

[marcadam]

I'm exactly the same, I don't really do conversations except when circumstances force me to, and even then I don't do them very well. Even trying to exchange information is challenging when the other person isn't receptive, this happens a lot at work. I don't have any friends (my long term partner being the only expectation), which is a good thing because friendships involve way too much talking for my liking.

 

[DogwoodTree]

None of that is "fine" to me, it's something going on in my life that needs attention but, apparently all of those things are "fine" to NTs and, they don't want to talk or hear about any of it.

I think some of this is due, in my experience, to introversion. (Not sure about you, especially considering your career choice, but I'm very introverted.) So...introverts tend to thrive on deep talks with a select few, whereas extroverts prefer small talk and chit chat with as many people as possible (that's very generalized, I know...don't want to over-stereotype or anything).

It's been difficult for me to tease apart which of my characteristics are due to introversion, and which are due to autism. If this difficulty connecting with people in conversation were due solely to introversion, it would seem that I would feel deeply connected to people when conversing in ideal circumstances, such as one-on-one with someone I know well who is comfortable talking about difficult topics that are very real for both of us.

So I managed to find a few people like that, and set up regular times to meet with them. There's one friend...she and I have been meeting for dinner or coffee or something every 4-6 weeks for 2 years now. She's an introvert, she's open and honest, she's willing to explore tough questions...seems ideal, right? And I try to be completely present to our conversations, and not dominate the conversation but also not hold back my own offers of vulnerability...but still, I can walk away from dinner with her and still feel completely alone inside, almost as if the meeting didn't even happen (at best...at worst, I feel intense loneliness which usually only hits when I've been trying to connect with people and realize I've failed miserably).

So if the ideal introvert experience doesn't satisfy, either...I'm thinking a lot of my issues with feeling disconnected are due more to autism than introversion...or maybe the specific combination of autistic and introverted (and trauma survivor) traits that I have. It seems like there's this chasm between me and everyone else that I haven't been able to traverse.

I saw an article a few weeks ago that talked about how, for women on the spectrum, the social part of the brain is active (unlike many autistic men's brains), but all the activity gets sorted through the logical part of the brain instead of having direct interface with the rest of the world, which is what NT women's brains do. It seems to me that this is a very good description of my experience. How can I experience an emotional connection with the world if all emotional data must be filtered through the logic center before reaching the surface?

Here's the article, and the relevant quote:

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/10/the-invisible-women-with-autism/410806/

Particularly interesting is the unpublished observation that in girls with autism, the social brain seems to communicate with the prefrontal cortex, a brain region that normally engages in reason and planning, and is known to burn through energy. It may be that women with autism keep their social brain engaged, but mediate it through the prefrontal cortex—in a sense, intellectualizing social interactions that would be intuitive for other women.

“That suggests compensation,” Pelphrey says. It also jibes with women like Maya saying they have learned the rules of social interactions, but find it draining to act on them all day. “It’s exhausting because it’s like you’re doing math all day,” Pelphrey says.

Pelphrey is right that this finding isn’t entirely a surprise to clinicians. Some scientists who regularly see women with autism have picked up on their remarkable ability to learn the rules enough to camouflage their symptoms—the way Maya has learned to. (“I don’t like making eye contact,” Maya says. “I do it because I have to and I know it’s appropriate.”)

This means clinicians have to be more creative when diagnosing women on the spectrum, rather than simply looking for, say, repetitive behavior, as they might with men. “Without their self-report telling you how stressful it is to maintain appearances, you wouldn’t really know,” says Francesca Happé, the director of the MRC Centre at King’s College London.

 

[Bellatrix]

It's also about what isn't said in a conversation that speaks the loudest.

You lost me at this point. I have no idea what this is supposed to be about. Body 'language' perhaps?

 

[Pondering]

You lost me at this point. I have no idea what this is supposed to be about. Body 'language' perhaps?

I actually meant that when a person says something, I can infer other deeper understandings about a person that are not always said. Not necessarily body language. For example: person says: "I'm so lonely all the time". Many things are relative though some things are concrete. Loneliness does not always have to do with not being around people. being lonely can be because of untold reason such as if no one can understand you. Being lonely in the world, lonely in your mind, and lonely in a way of thinking. Just because a person doesn't ask for sympathy or empathy or a hug, does not necessarily mean they do not want it. I can just FEEL the world closing in on them, the ache in their heart almost to the point of numbness. The unexpressed pain and sadness deep within. It isn't just a blank statement. It goes deeper. Like maybe they have trouble talking to people, a feeling that can't be explained, but perceived. Like a portrait showing just part of a face; my mind fills in the whole thing and thus, conversation, in effect, allows me to see into a person's mind. No conversation, no picture of their identity, regardless of what they look like. though I still have Asperger's Syndrome, I can still feel what they feel. I always feel something from someone else. It's just that my Asperger's hinders me from understanding all the feelings at times. It's unexplainable. Not fact set in stone, but a true hunch nonetheless that I've learned to rely on and just trust. That's how I take conversation. I can understand how some would think this a very strange thing because their minds do not work like this and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But personally, I believe their is always more to a conversation than what meets the eye.
It doesn't mean reading between the lines when there is nothing else to be read. It simply means that if there is more to read than what is said, I can usually see that. If not, I see nothing more to the conversation. It's not assuming, guessing, or presuming. It's just another sense, I suppose.

 

[Beverly]

Cheryl See, that's the thing, if someone says to me "I'm so lonely all of the time." my reply is "Not true, I'm here, therefore you are not alone now and thus, are not lonely now so, you are not lonely all of the time."

As for someone reading between the lines when I speak, that's one of the fastest and best ways to piss me off. If I did not say it, I did not mean it, did not imply it in any way and, if you think otherwise, clearly you weren't listening very well. Generally that ends the conversation, I walk away. I am not going to deal with people that insist on reading more into my words than I said. They are wrong, if I had meant more, I would have said more.

For example if I tell you "I'm hungry." That is a simple statement of fact. it does not mean I want to go out to eat or want you to get me food, give me money for food or whatever else you might think it means. It only means that I am hungry, not that I am going to do anything about it right now nor that I want you to do anything about it, it is simply a fact, that's all, nothing more.

I would never try to guess what someone else is thinking, I'd probably be wrong and, even if I were right, they didn't say it so, they don't want me to know it. Guessing the thoughts of others is stealing their privacy and, that isn't nice at all. (unless you are talking to a mind reader, in which case, they had best prove they have that ability beyond a doubt or I'm not buying it.)

 

[unsurewhattoname]

There is a huge difference between feeling lonely and being alone. You could be surrounded by thousands of people and still feel lonely. You could be alone and not feel lonely. If someone says they're feeling lonely and you say that they're probably going to feel ever more lonely because you really don't understand them.

 

[zurb]

Sometimes I look at NTs conversing and wish they'd treat me like that. Then when they do, I feel really uncomfortable, have nothing to say, and want to escape.
For an NT perspective on conversation, you might like to try A Field Guide to Earthlings: An autistic/Asperger view by Ian Ford

 

[NothingToSeeHere]

I was skyping my parents yesterday, and it reminded me of this thread.

My conversation with my dad consisted off, Dad:" Hi, been doing anything interesting lately?" Me: "No, you?" Dad:" I'm building a new super computer *wanders off to carry on with this*" while my conversation with my mum was 30 minutes of her interrogating me for every detail of my life whilst chatting about stuff I have no interest in.

The contrast made me laugh, dad's an aspie and mums NT if that wasn't obvious

 

[David Larson]

My recommended reading when it comes to this particular topic is Eric Berne's "Games People Play". The psychology and philosophy of this book completely revolutionized my understanding of human interaction, and finally answered the question that dogged me: "Why do NTs talk so much and for no apparent reason?"

Basically, they'll experience a form of death if they don't. There's more to it than that, but there have been two distinct eras in my life: my life of pre-Berne understanding, and my post-Berne life. It's seriously that good, and good for us-all-people especially. Not a long read either.

 

[zurb]

Think I've quoted this before...

One of the things Ford Prefect had always found hardest to understand about humans was their habit of continually stating and repeating the very very obvious, as in It's a nice day, or You're very tall, or Oh dear you seem to have fallen down a thirty-foot well, are you alright? At first Ford had formed a theory to account for this strange behaviour. If human beings don't keep exercising their lips, he thought, their mouths probably seize up. After a few months' consideration and observation he abandoned this theory in favour of a new one. If they don't keep on exercising their lips, he thought, their brains start working. After a while he abandoned this one as well as being obstructively cynical.

 

[Beverly]

Yeah, supposedly humans are social creatures, herd or pack animals if you will and, we are supposed to NEED to socialize. Maybe but, for myself and, I think many on the spectrum, stating the obvious and other idle, meaningless banter is not the way to do it. I'm all for talking and, will happily talk your ears and, probably your butt as well off IF the conversation means something, teaches me something or , allows me to teach you something, or is a good debate about current issues, or a specific historical event. I'll even debate religion and faith with you for hours. I'm learning and giving you information throughout and, that's a good reason to talk.

If all you want to do is tell me that it's supposed to rain tomorrow and, it's going to frost tonight, well go on your way then, I'll nod because I already know that. I can read or hear the forecast form a dozen different sources the same as you can so, if that's all you have to tell me then either you think I'm too stupid or too busy to read or listen to the forecast myself, or you are so boring that that is the most interesting thought in your head, in which case, I'd loose you before I got even one sentence into a real conversation.

 

[LoveDream]

Tony Attwood, in his book The Complete Guide to Asperger's Syndrome, says on pg 208, "I have the impression that many people with Asperger's syndrome consider a conversation to be primarily an opportunity to exchange information, to learn or inform, and if there is no practical information to exchange, why waste time talking?"

This is completely accurate for me. I do recognize that helpful information on another person's mood can be transmitted by a small amount of conversation. But even that--conversation, for me, exists for the purpose of exchanging information. I don't really "get" what other purpose there could be.

I see the signs that NTs engage in conversation for the sheer pleasure of it, and they do, in fact, seem to enjoy it. But I don't experience that at all, unless the information being transmitted is interesting to me. What am I missing? I read that statement in Attwood's book and I'm like, "Well duh. Why else would people bother with talking?"

In that same chapter, he talks about various social skills that aspies need to learn to be successful conversationalists. But dang...all those rules and concepts, all of which has to be processed at a cognitive level. It's so much work!! I can perform a lot of it fairly well, but it's certainly not enjoyable. Compliments, entertainment, sympathy, proximity...conversation is not satisfying for me in any of these areas.

As an NT, we aren't all fantastic at conversations. We muck up and say the wrong things, can be very rude and impolite, awkward, mean and often walk away thinking things could have went better. In many ways, we are alike.

As for what we get out of conversations, surprisingly, it's the same as you, information. The difference is the information we collect is usually personal (how are your kids, family, job going, dating etc), experienced based (let me tell about my trip to New Zealand or I had a horrible date Friday night etc...) or what seems trivial (asking how are you? I'm ok...) is a way to check-in without being invasive. It's not the response "I'm ok" - it's how it was said. Maybe the person said it very 'down' or 'sad' like, I would let them know I'd be here if they needed to talk or something like that. Or maybe they answer, "I'm really good." That tells me, something great has happened and I'd ask them, "why are you really good?" Then, they'd share.

Through this information, we feel more connected to the person. Even trivial conversations tell us something. Over time, if the connection is strong then this will build into more complex or deeper conversations. We generally "feel" each other as we are talking and get a sense of the person and how much of yourself you will show to them. Some you can trust, others you cannot.

We follow those rules and yes, they are complex and very straining. There have been plenty of times, that I would have loved to speak my mind, and throw the rulebook out the window. But, socially that would be very disastrous. For example, at a charity event, there was a very major benefactor, who proceeded to have a conversation that was extremely sexist. I was disgusted by their ignorance and would have loved to let them have it. But, I had to excuse myself from their presence and play the political game, because yes, they are ignorant but they were funding a project to ironically help a lot of disadvantaged women. It's frustrating, believe me.

I love talking, it's my gift and I love connecting with people. I talk to build genuine relationships. I don't care if you are NT or Aspies or whatever, I will always start a conversation with you. I don't care if it takes you 5 minutes to reply, I don't care if it's silence or if you talk about engines or birds.

I will tell you this, sometimes, a smile, a compliment, a "hey" goes a long way. I can't tell you how many times, I've felt down but someone said something nice to me, and it helped. Maybe, they were "acting" or maybe they were just being polite, but I received it as a positive and it made me feel good. Sometimes, it's not what we GET out of life but what we GIVE! Keep that in mind, it may help.

 

[Beverly]

I know that LoveDream but, I have to think about what you mean when you say "hey" because I don't see it written, my first though is of hay, as in for feeding grazing animals that are kept in captivity without access to enough fresh browse for them so, must be fed hay.

If I answer "Fine" when asked how I am, then that means nothing good, bad, exciting or even interesting at all has happened since the last time I spoke to you and, that is highly unlikely to be the case for anyone so, that is a dishonest answer.

for me how it's said, facial expressions, body language mean nothing as to the truth of what is said. I know all of those too and, I can use them but, I can smile and say "Wow, you are real jerk wad and I hate you." Now my tone could be pleasant, I could look and act happy but, I'd be acting, that's all so, why would I assume anyone else is not capable of the same and therefore, I take the words not the expression of body language or, tone. Those mean nothing to me, it might be an act, it tells me nothing except the person knows those things, that's all, nothing more. To me that's wht NTs do when they have idle conversation, they act, it's a game, it means nothing, it's just what's expected of them is all. Same for me, I can put on the façade, play the came, act the part but, it's all fake, phoney, not the real me so, since outright asking if they are being genuine and honest or faking it as I am is rude, I assume they might be faking as much as I am.

Why would you smile if you aren't either happy or posing for a photo or portrait in which you want to be portrayed as smiling? Unless you need to get in the good graces of a perso, like your boss or manager, or the owner of an establishment you frequent, why would you compliment somone if something about them wasn't truly exceptional and worthy of a compliment?

Somone tells me I look nice when I'm wearing my faded jeans and a sweatshirt, I ignore them because it's clearly not true, I look like a lazy slob that didn't feel like doing her hair, makeup or even wearing flattering clothes that day.

As for what we give, yes to a point but, life is never going to give you anything for nothing, you really want it, you've got to get out there and take it, make it happen.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Through this information, we feel more connected to the person.

But if I don't get that sense of connection with someone when I talk with them...despite making every effort to conduct an authentic and open conversation with someone I like and respect...then what's the point of frequently engaging in that kind of conversation?

I will tell you this, sometimes, a smile, a compliment, a "hey" goes a long way. I can't tell you how many times, I've felt down but someone said something nice to me, and it helped. Maybe, they were "acting" or maybe they were just being polite, but I received it as a positive and it made me feel good.

This doesn't work for me. If they're just acting, it feels more like a lie than encouragement. And even if they're being genuine, it's like watching dolphins swimming out in the ocean--I can observe, but I'm not one of them. There's just no sense of emotional connection in the conversation.

I don't care if you are NT or Aspies or whatever, I will always start a conversation with you. I don't care if it takes you 5 minutes to reply, I don't care if it's silence or if you talk about engines or birds.

Okay, imagine this (and maybe it won't take a lot of imagination, lol). Imagine you hate math. You can get by with it, but you really struggle to do anything more than very basic functions, like 2(3 + 4). Math is cognitively very challenging--your brain has to work really hard in order to do it. You might feel a mild sense of accomplishment when you complete a task--if you're in a good mood--but more often than not, you're biding your time counting the seconds as they tick away on the clock, anxiously anticipating being able to leave the room and go do something else.

Then imagine that 99% of your friends absolutely love math. Not only do they love doing it, they love talking about it, all the time. They discuss mathematical concepts and theories and algorithms and proofs and everything else math. Every now and then, they humor you with a few minutes of talking about something else, but they're obviously bored with the conversation and don't really have anything to contribute on any other topic you'd like to discuss, so eventually you stop bothering them with other stuff. You work hard to try to follow their conversations, but they're obviously experiencing a level of pleasure and excitement over math that you can't begin to comprehend, much less force yourself to experience. And to top it off, they don't have a clue what you mean when you try to explain how disconnected and unfulfilled you feel around them. They simply can't imagine that anyone would struggle with math or not enjoy it.

You're trying to build a "genuine relationship" with all of these people, really, you are. But y'all don't speak the same social language. They argue over advanced mathematical proofs while you can't wrap your mind around why in the world anyone thought it might be a good idea to use letters in math and call it "algebra."

This might sound quirky, but this is the world many of us grew up in, except in reverse. There's this emotional sense of connection in social interactions that simply don't happen for me. I can follow the exchange of superficial information, and I can even conduct a more in-depth conversation. But without the emotional payoff in the experience, it's essentially a lot of hard, cognitive work that simply isn't worth the effort in most cases. There are a few people whom I deeply care about, and will do the work in order to try and meet their needs in our relationship. But it's work, and it takes a great deal of mental and emotional energy. And there's little to nothing coming back in in exchange for all of this effort (depending on the person and the circumstances).

You might be willing to talk about engines or birds or whatever in order to try to connect with an aspie. But would you be able to do that nearly every time you're with that person? Would you be able to contribute to that conversational topic so the person feels like you actually value the exchange of information?

For an NT, mostly there's this emotional connection, regardless of topic or the relevance of that information to other priorities. For an aspie, there needs to be an exchange of valuable and enticing information, because there is no emotional connection in the context of the conversation. That's the only way the work required to perform the conversation is worth the effort.

Growing up, I truly thought everyone was faking this sense of emotional connection. I thought you were supposed to fake it, because that's what you do to communicate to someone that you care. Then I decided to try and be more authentic with people. I thought they would be relieved to know they could drop the mask around me, and let communications become more efficient and less pressured. I can't tell you the shock as I slowly discovered that these other people weren't faking it. In fact, I'm still not fully convinced. I have such a hard time imagining what it is y'all experience in a conversation, and what it is that makes small talk and chit chat and even deeper conversations so rewarding to you. I want that experience, desperately so. But nothing I've done or tried has succeeded in opening up that emotional connection for me, despite going to great lengths to try to make it happen.

 

[LoveDream]

I can honestly answer you and say, that I do make a huge effort to have a more informational conversation, in order to show that I do value my Aspie boyfriend and the way he thinks.

In fact, you can see that I posted asking for help or for someone to teach me how I could show him, I value his style of communicating and way of thinking. I wanted to know, how I could be the one to "make the effort" to fit in his world because I know that he constantly has to do this in a NT world.

I think that the main issue is that as an NT we just aren't aware. What I mean is, we don't know any other way to socialize. We don't know what the problem is, what the disconnect is. We don't know that it's boring and pointless. We have to educated and taught and we are very capable of socializing in a more "Aspie friendly" way.

I think we both have to learn from each other and work together to help each other. I am constantly learning, I work with over 100 students who speak 34 different languages and I only speak English. We often struggle and often can't understand each other due to the language barrier but we always smile, laugh, hug, shout, eat, interact on whatever way we can.

...So yes, I can understand your math example and it just so happens, majority of my friends are engineers and when we get together they go straight into "engineer talk". I'm usually lost within minutes, but I still enjoy their conversation. Why? Because, I'm fascinated by their intelligence and their exchange of information that I'd never be able to understand. I enjoy just being apart of that energy. I'm in an entirely opposite field (education, non-profit, psychology) so they challenge my mind.

I'd like to point out to you, that you are exchanging information with me but more importantly, you are opening up and sharing things about yourself. I feel conected to you. It's a simple as that for me.

How do you feel when you have conversations that are informational focused? Do you get happy? Excited? How about when you think or talk about or do your special interest? It's like that for us, those feelings. You feel them, it's just tied to different things.

I know that as an Aspie, emotional connection is a struggle and you feel like you are incapable and missing out. But, I look at it like this, you have a GIFT, not a defect! By being able to be emotional disconnected means in times of emergencies, you keep a clear head and are the voices of reason. You are honest and trustworthy. You think before you act. You can look at all angles of a situation, clearly. I envy this. No matter how much I try, I cannot 'turn off' my emotions. I am often subjective and narrow minded in my view of situations, until I first, deal with my emotions. So, see we both want what the other has...

 

[Beverly]

for me, I don't think about personal information beyond likes, dislikes and interests. How my partner feels emotionally, so long as they are not upset, mad at or, disappointed with me personally is no concern of mine. I care if they are physically tired, I care if they want to do something relaxing but, even there, they need to tell me specifically what they want or want me to do.

Saying "I'm tired/hungry/bored, sad/lonely/etc..." gets a "Yeah so?" reaction from me. All you did was tell me a fact. If you want me to try and correct your minor problem, then you need to tell me to do that. If you are going to do something abut it yourself, you need to tell me that to make how you feel meaningful to me. Otherwise, you are simply doing that NT thing where they tell you their problems but then, get mad at you if you try to solve them. Yeah I learned not to try to solve problems unless I am told to try to solve the problem. Apparently NTs like telling people they have a problem but, they don't really want the problem solved. Again, that's pointless - why tell me if you do not want me to solve the problem. (Yes I know, Men Are From Mars, Women are from Venus reference there. Well Aspies are from mars regardless of gender if you've read that book, if not it is a good read, just replace men and Women with Aspie and NT, and you'll get the idea.)

 

[LoveDream]

I know that LoveDream but, I have to think about what you mean when you say "hey" because I don't see it written, my first though is of hay, as in for feeding grazing animals that are kept in captivity without access to enough fresh browse for them so, must be fed hay.

If I answer "Fine" when asked how I am, then that means nothing good, bad, exciting or even interesting at all has happened since the last time I spoke to you and, that is highly unlikely to be the case for anyone so, that is a dishonest answer.

for me how it's said, facial expressions, body language mean nothing as to the truth of what is said. I know all of those too and, I can use them but, I can smile and say "Wow, you are real jerk wad and I hate you." Now my tone could be pleasant, I could look and act happy but, I'd be acting, that's all so, why would I assume anyone else is not capable of the same and therefore, I take the words not the expression of body language or, tone. Those mean nothing to me, it might be an act, it tells me nothing except the person knows those things, that's all, nothing more. To me that's wht NTs do when they have idle conversation, they act, it's a game, it means nothing, it's just what's expected of them is all. Same for me, I can put on the façade, play the came, act the part but, it's all fake, phoney, not the real me so, since outright asking if they are being genuine and honest or faking it as I am is rude, I assume they might be faking as much as I am.

Why would you smile if you aren't either happy or posing for a photo or portrait in which you want to be portrayed as smiling? Unless you need to get in the good graces of a perso, like your boss or manager, or the owner of an establishment you frequent, why would you compliment somone if something about them wasn't truly exceptional and worthy of a compliment?

Somone tells me I look nice when I'm wearing my faded jeans and a sweatshirt, I ignore them because it's clearly not true, I look like a lazy slob that didn't feel like doing her hair, makeup or even wearing flattering clothes that day.

As for what we give, yes to a point but, life is never going to give you anything for nothing, you really want it, you've got to get out there and take it, make it happen.

Beverly, I am not going to lie, I read and had to read your post again because it's just so different from how I think. It's very fascinating and I enjoy your posts.

Okay, well if "hey" reminds you of "hay", tell us, we have heard that joke, "hay is for horses" lol. Usually, from an older person telling a youngin to speak more formally, use the word, "hello". Make a joke to us or answer back with your greeting word of choice.

As for 'dishonest'answers, if they feel dishonest the you, don't give them. Everyone has different definitions of what "fine" is and how it applies to them. I may be "fine" for the most part but don't feel like discussing that I got into a huge fight with my sister, with anyone that isn't my family. So, yes, if my coworker asks me, how are you? I'll answer, fine and mean it and it's true. As far as I'm concerned, my coworker boundary is professional world and in that world I am fine, since my issue with my sister is my personal world. Does that help explain?

See, the "truth" isn't literally said in NT world. I can be really mad and say I just wish they would jump off a cliff. I don't mean this at all, it's an expression. I say this, to signify that I am frustrated and I definitely would never literally wish death on someone. It's more of a way to express my feelings than anything else. I know it's confusing. I'm trying to explain the best I can.

You know how your brain is wired to process everything logically? Surprise, ours is wired a different way. It's not an act, we don't have control over it. We honestly process the world around us in a "emotional" way. We do learn social behavior but it's innate to respond emotionally. When a baby cries, the pitch of their cry will cause distress subconsciously in the mother, so she will naturally respond to the child. Sometimes, the baby will just want 'connection', it's not hungry, not, wet, not sleep, not sick, just needs 'bonding'. The mom may coo and baby talk with the baby, obviously they are not 'exchanging facts' but they are connecting.

So, what may help is if you only apply your rules to yourself. Do not apply it to NT's. What that means is, if complimenting someone when they are wearing a sweatshirt and faded jeans, is "dishonest" to YOU therefore, you would not do it. Then okay, that's YOUR RULE. It's not applicable to me. You cannot determine my intent based upon your own preconceived ideas. I actually may compliment your outfit and MEAN it. Maybe, I really like your style or maybe you just look comfortable or maybe I happen to love sweatshirts. It's not fair to automatically discredit someone based off of your rules. You can say thanks and point out that you are wearing nothing special. That way you are being honest but an NT won't think it was rude. For example, "Um, thank you for the compliment but I'm bumming it today."

Mr. LoveDream always tells me I'm beautiful, usually when I'm a mess (no makeup and tee shirt and yoga pants, hair in messy bun)...and according to him, he means it, why else would he say it? Now, I don't feel beautiful at all but if I were to apply my rules of beauty then I'd unfairly discredit him and his compliment.

Disclaimer: Please excuse me and my NT ways if any of this comes off wrong or offensive. I can guarantee you that I do not mean to be offensive.

I do hope I'm helping and not making things more confusing...

 

[DogwoodTree]

I do make a huge effort to have a more informational conversation, in order to show that I do value my Aspie boyfriend and the way he thinks.

This is certainly commendable. Do you think it will eventually become exhausting for you, perhaps even boring? Right now, it's new and fresh. What about in 10 years? 20? What about when you grow old and the kids have left and it's just the two of you again? What about when you face a life crisis, like the loss of a deeply loved family member, or facing a serious illness?

We often struggle and often can't understand each other due to the language barrier but we always smile, laugh, hug, shout, eat, interact on whatever way we can.

But underneath the spoken languages, you still have the social language in common. Whether you speak English, Arab, or Chinese, you still enjoy a hug, or feel uplifted by someone's smile, or are amused when someone laughs even if you didn't catch the joke. For me, all of that is semantics. I read it like a weatherman reads the weather, and try to interpret what it means. That part is easy enough because of my background of growing up in an abusive family where I had to learn to read people, but I don't know what to do with the information. I can't respond to it in real time, and the responses I do come up with are rehearsed performances, not fluid and natural and intuitive expressions of who I really am.

I'm usually lost within minutes, but I still enjoy their conversation. Why? Because, I'm fascinated by their intelligence and their exchange of information that I'd never be able to understand. I enjoy just being apart of that energy.

Again, you still have the underlying social language to work with. And I'm sure you have other friends to help balance out this experience, and/or your engineering friends are generally more capable of connecting with you on your interests at times as well. I look back over my 4+ decades of life so far, and there is no one--no one--who I ever felt completely relaxed with them, where I could say anything, or not say anything, and know that I would be accepted for that. I've been married for nearly 20 years, and even with my husband whom I love deeply and who is so dedicated and loyal and committed to me...even with him, I'm always "performing" because really, that's the only way I'm even all that interactive at all. In my "natural" state, I'm deeply inside my head with no interaction with the outside world (unless I'm researching something online, lol).

So I have to work at it in order to be interactive at all--I have to recall rules and algorithms of behavior, and I have to work to process speech (it all gets transformed in my head from auditory language to written language, which I can then read), and I have to recall words from my brain to use to form sentences in response, and I have to adapt my breathing to allow for the words to come out loudly enough but not too loud and quickly enough but not too fast, and I have to think about my posture and body language and facial expressions and tone of voice, and I have to consider how my message will come across to the other person and process all of this information from their perspective, too, in order to predict whether they will be able to understand what I'm trying to say, and then I have to interpret their response to determine if I was right or not, and that's only the beginning, and all of this happens on a more-or-less conscious/cognitive/intellectual level. Believe me, it's much easier just to stay quiet off by myself. But by definition, isolation is, well, isolating.

I'd like to point out to you, that you are exchanging information with me but more importantly, you are opening up and sharing things about yourself. I feel conected to you. It's a simple as that for me.

Exchanging information, yes, and especially since autism is currently one of my special interests, the act of sharing this information is enjoyable. But it's internal connections with my own ideas, not external connections with a person.

I have a friend who brushed it off when I tried to describe to him what this internal isolation is like. He said almost the exact same thing you just did. He said that he felt connected to me, so what's the problem? I didn't want to hurt his feelings, so I dropped it, but from my side of the experience, it's a huge-huge-huge problem. It's constant loneliness, no matter what I do, no matter who is around, no matter what is being discussed. The only times I don't feel lonely are when I'm alone.

How do you feel when you have conversations that are informational focused? Do you get happy? Excited? How about when you think or talk about or do your special interest? It's like that for us, those feelings. You feel them, it's just tied to different things.

Happy? No. Excited? Maybe in a cognitive sense, but not, like, jumping up and down ecstatic. When I can talk about a special interest, my brain lights up with ideas, and words flow in a way that almost feels supernatural. I'll listen to my own words and learn things I didn't know I knew. But again, it's tied to the ideas, not the other person. So in it, there's no emotional connection to that person, and no counteraction to the loneliness.

Also, for me at least, and I've read this is common with aspies, I experience delayed emotional processing. So even if I do have emotions in response to things people say...I don't feel or even recognize those emotions until well after the conversation is over. And then it's too late for the emotions to be part and parcel of the conversation. They're disconnected, and unavailable at a time when the other person could have identified and responded to the way I feel. It's like being in a time warp, always experiencing events at least a few hours (sometimes days, weeks, or years) after they happen.

I know that as an Aspie, emotional connection is a struggle and you feel like you are incapable and missing out. But, I look at it like this, you have a GIFT, not a defect! By being able to be emotional disconnected means in times of emergencies,

My therapist pointed out that quirky people bring a unique perspective into a relationship, and can be a refreshing change from the norm. That's awesome, if you have other options: you've got your norm, and then you get a whiff of something different, and then you go back to normal. I don't. This is all the time. With everyone. There is always this chasm between me and other people. Yes, there are times when it serves as a strength, and there are other strengths that come along with it. But humans aren't meant to live in isolation, even aspies. This isn't a "grass is always greener" deal. It would be like saying, "I have food, you have starvation. It's amazing to me how grateful you are when you get even a tiny morsel of food! See? We both want what the other has."

Although I'm married and have kids and a successful career and a handful of people I see on a regular basis, on the inside, I experience nearly complete emotional isolation. I've not yet found a way out of that, not consistently. Every now and then, I get a whiff...just a brief glimpse...of what it must feel like to be seen and understood and connected. But it never lasts long, and I have no idea how to replicate it.

 

[LoveDream]

This is certainly commendable. Do you think it will eventually become exhausting for you, perhaps even boring? Right now, it's new and fresh. What about in 10 years? 20? What about when you grow old and the kids have left and it's just the two of you again? What about when you face a life crisis, like the loss of a deeply loved family member, or facing a serious illness?



But underneath the spoken languages, you still have the social language in common. Whether you speak English, Arab, or Chinese, you still enjoy a hug, or feel uplifted by someone's smile, or are amused when someone laughs even if you didn't catch the joke. For me, all of that is semantics. I read it like a weatherman reads the weather, and try to interpret what it means. That part is easy enough because of my background of growing up in an abusive family where I had to learn to read people, but I don't know what to do with the information. I can't respond to it in real time, and the responses I do come up with are rehearsed performances, not fluid and natural and intuitive expressions of who I really am.



Again, you still have the underlying social language to work with. And I'm sure you have other friends to help balance out this experience, and/or your engineering friends are generally more capable of connecting with you on your interests at times as well. I look back over my 4+ decades of life so far, and there is no one--no one--who I ever felt completely relaxed with them, where I could say anything, or not say anything, and know that I would be accepted for that. I've been married for nearly 20 years, and even with my husband whom I love deeply and who is so dedicated and loyal and committed to me...even with him, I'm always "performing" because really, that's the only way I'm even all that interactive at all. In my "natural" state, I'm deeply inside my head with no interaction with the outside world (unless I'm researching something online, lol).

So I have to work at it in order to be interactive at all--I have to recall rules and algorithms of behavior, and I have to work to process speech (it all gets transformed in my head from auditory language to written language, which I can then read), and I have to recall words from my brain to use to form sentences in response, and I have to adapt my breathing to allow for the words to come out loudly enough but not too loud and quickly enough but not too fast, and I have to think about my posture and body language and facial expressions and tone of voice, and I have to consider how my message will come across to the other person and process all of this information from their perspective, too, in order to predict whether they will be able to understand what I'm trying to say, and then I have to interpret their response to determine if I was right or not, and that's only the beginning, and all of this happens on a more-or-less conscious/cognitive/intellectual level. Believe me, it's much easier just to stay quiet off by myself. But by definition, isolation is, well, isolating.



Exchanging information, yes, and especially since autism is currently one of my special interests, the act of sharing this information is enjoyable. But it's internal connections with my own ideas, not external connections with a person.

I have a friend who brushed it off when I tried to describe to him what this internal isolation is like. He said almost the exact same thing you just did. He said that he felt connected to me, so what's the problem? I didn't want to hurt his feelings, so I dropped it, but from my side of the experience, it's a huge-huge-huge problem. It's constant loneliness, no matter what I do, no matter who is around, no matter what is being discussed. The only times I don't feel lonely are when I'm alone.



Happy? No. Excited? Maybe in a cognitive sense, but not, like, jumping up and down ecstatic. When I can talk about a special interest, my brain lights up with ideas, and words flow in a way that almost feels supernatural. I'll listen to my own words and learn things I didn't know I knew. But again, it's tied to the ideas, not the other person. So in it, there's no emotional connection to that person, and no counteraction to the loneliness.

Also, for me at least, and I've read this is common with aspies, I experience delayed emotional processing. So even if I do have emotions in response to things people say...I don't feel or even recognize those emotions until well after the conversation is over. And then it's too late for the emotions to be part and parcel of the conversation. They're disconnected, and unavailable at a time when the other person could have identified and responded to the way I feel. It's like being in a time warp, always experiencing events at least a few hours (sometimes days, weeks, or years) after they happen.



My therapist pointed out that quirky people bring a unique perspective into a relationship, and can be a refreshing change from the norm. That's awesome, if you have other options: you've got your norm, and then you get a whiff of something different, and then you go back to normal. I don't. This is all the time. With everyone. There is always this chasm between me and other people. Yes, there are times when it serves as a strength, and there are other strengths that come along with it. But humans aren't meant to live in isolation, even aspies. This isn't a "grass is always greener" deal. It would be like saying, "I have food, you have starvation. It's amazing to me how grateful you are when you get even a tiny morsel of food! See? We both want what the other has."

Although I'm married and have kids and a successful career and a handful of people I see on a regular basis, on the inside, I experience nearly complete emotional isolation. I've not yet found a way out of that, not consistently. Every now and then, I get a whiff...just a brief glimpse...of what it must feel like to be seen and understood and connected. But it never lasts long, and I have no idea how to replicate it.

I am so sorry and I feel so sad knowing that feel so isolated. I can't imagine the pain that you are experiencing.

I am sorry for not fully understanding the depth of this grief. I apologize for making it seem as if I was brushing you off.

You are right, humans are social creatures and need social connection. What can I do to help you feel seen, heard and understood?

And yes, I will do this for him, until the day I die, as his friend, girlfriend and one day, wife. It's not boring, it's a different style of communicating and it's necessary for me to reciprocate the same effort he gives me. I will always be here for him. Loyalty means lifelong to me, regardless of how the role in our lives change. We've been together over 8 years and going strong. ♡

 

[LoveDream]

Yeah, supposedly humans are social creatures, herd or pack animals if you will and, we are supposed to NEED to socialize. Maybe but, for myself and, I think many on the spectrum, stating the obvious and other idle, meaningless banter is not the way to do it. I'm all for talking and, will happily talk your ears and, probably your butt as well off IF the conversation means something, teaches me something or , allows me to teach you something, or is a good debate about current issues, or a specific historical event. I'll even debate religion and faith with you for hours. I'm learning and giving you information throughout and, that's a good reason to talk.

If all you want to do is tell me that it's supposed to rain tomorrow and, it's going to frost tonight, well go on your way then, I'll nod because I already know that. I can read or hear the forecast form a dozen different sources the same as you can so, if that's all you have to tell me then either you think I'm too stupid or too busy to read or listen to the forecast myself, or you are so boring that that is the most interesting thought in your head, in which case, I'd loose you before I got even one sentence into a real conversation.

no we aren't that "boring or stupid" we are just sharing the weather as a way to relate to each other. We had a lot snow this past week so all this week, everyone kept commenting on how this weekend was going to be nice, "55 degress", I heard it all week, at least 10x day. What they really mean is they are tired of snow. They are excited about sunshine. They miss seeing the green grass or driving on a clear non-ice road. Basically, one mundane sentence about the weather, conveys so much, in our own minds and we "share" the same understanding and can see all of those meanings and a million more in a snapshot.

General P.S. -I wish that NT's weren't always judged as stupid or unintelligent or boring. We think differently but that doesn't make us inferior.