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Saddened by a website I was reading

My NT sister is dating a man diagnosed with Aspergers. They been together for years now, and he is by far the sweetest guy she has ever been with. She has had terrible boyfriends in the past who has treated her like stated on the website, but none of them were Aspies.

Even though we may be "wired" a certain way, we still have a choice in how we treat people. Not all Aspies are the same, just like not NTs are the same.

That being said, I do think that it's important for NTs in a relationship with an Aspie to understand them. Using myself as an example (although I am female, I'm not sure if the website assumes that male and female Aspies are different in this matter), I am most certainly capable of loving other people. Deeply and almost unconditionally. But I'm not very good at telling people this, so people who don't understand me might think that I'm cold. But people who know and understand me knows that if I choose to spend time with them, it's because I love them.
 
That being said, I do think that it's important for NTs in a relationship with an Aspie to understand them.

My spouse is always saying in moments of frustration and anger "don't understand you" you are so weird" and I struggle to explain, and I really don't know why I can't explain better.
 
I am apparently quite the systemizer!

Score
Test taken by you on 17 January 2017 116.0

The average score for males with ASD (334 people took this test) 79.0
The average score for females with ASD (372 people took this test) 78.9
The average score for males with suspected ASD (2252 people took this test) 80.9
The average score for females with suspected ASD (3936 people took this test) 75.0
The average score for male neurotypicals (1236 people took this test) 70.9
The average score for female neurotypicals (1770 people took this test) 63.7
 
The discussions related to disclosing one's status as autistic are mainly related to applying for jobs and, they are also about relationships with people.

Understand this Mary Terry, autistic people who live among NT's often have to do this to be able to function in the world, to get jobs, to find mates. They do not do this to 'CON' people (your word) they do it to function because many have social deficits.

I highly dislike your inference here, on this post. I am not nor have I ever conned anyone, nor have I lied about my status. Your anger against your sister in law seems to be related to ascribing blame to aspies in general.

And I don't like it, especially on a site for Aspies who have enough difficulty getting along in the world. Aspies have social deficits, and often other difficulties associated with the condition. In doing so, you make me feel awful for being an aspie, and it's likely other people here have read your post. I don't know why you are here? Is it to shame Aspies somehow? Because that's what it feels like.

Dear Mia:

You just said exactly what I believe is morally wrong - you said that autistic people "often" [do not disclose] their status as autistic in order "to find mates". How can you conceivably defend non-disclosure as fair to the NT mate? Are Aspies more important than NTs? Do you think NTs are not entitled to know that their potential mate has a ASD diagnosis with "social deficits, and often other difficulties associated with the condition"? Aspies who conceal their status in order to "find mates" should be shamed because it is wrong to the NT.

I don't know what you think I'm inferring as I clearly stated I do not believe my SIL's evil flows from her autism but from her being a bad person in general.

This website is not limited to autistics and I frequently see other NT commenters here. I am a long time active supporter of autistics and have been voluntarily tutoring autistics for over 5 years at my own expense and time to help them obtain GEDs (the U.S. equivalent of a high school diploma) in order to get jobs and/or attend college. I occasionally participate in this website because I learn things about autism that help me communicate with and teach my students what they need to learn in order to pass the GED examination. They often ask me questions about relationships, marital and otherwise, and I always tell them that honesty is the best policy. What do you think I should tell them instead of being honest?

It is sad that you sound like you are ashamed of being autistic rather than accepting who you are and using your special nature to enlighten the world about your uniqueness and autism in general. I'm sorry you feel that way.
 
Tough topic, can't respond with the clarity, sensitivity, and nuance it deserves.

Aspie male here, in a relationship with an NT female. When I have read posts such as the OP relates, I see myself in the description. I also see the hurt, frustration and anger of my spouse. I have tried to make changes, not always successful, but I try. I acknowledge my faults and shortcomings, try to make up for them, but often come up short. Why does she stay?

At times I have responded with anger and shutdowns to my spouses requests and demands, but nothing comparing to the namecalling, yelling, threats and outright physical abuse (thrown objects, punches, slaps) she has dished out.

Why do I stay? It is what I know, now. Over time, my prior experiences have been discounted, the sense of self I had crafted over years has been upturned. I can see how I have been deluding myself with what I thought I was capable of. Hard to understand, but I can see how the condition of Aspergers kept me largely ignorant of how my shortcomings worked against my strengths. I am not the person I thought I was. Therapy has helped me understand that I was feeling my way along, latching on to what others were doing, or simply wandering around following my own path.

The few friends I had were eventually shown to be selfish manipulators, and the only reason I considered them friends was because they stroked my ego. This was determined by my spouse, following a disastrous attempt by me to reach out for help in dealing with a relationship that I felt I could no longer function in. I don't believe her conclusion, but I recognize some truth in the nature of the relationships I have had with others, and with her.

Relationships are difficult to navigate. My first marriage was peaceful, loving and supportive in its way. We were young, and neither of us really had much direction in life, so we drifted apart and it ended.

I know that I don't approach relationships with a strong sense of what I want from it, it is all touch and feel my along.

Let's not descend into bashing one group or another, this is too serious a subject to never get past who does what worse than the other. I am struggling in one of these relationships, "just get out" is too simplistic, many lack the strength, outside support, resources, safe havens to just get out.

In many cases, looking at the alternatives can look worse than what they are currently facing.

As I read your post, I'm feeling the pain right along with you. I know how it tears both sides up. The hurt, frustration and anger....those are the same exact words I used over and over in telling my partner what I was feeling on a daily basis. I also empathize with your feelings of not ever feeling good enough, helplessness, anger and frustration at yourself and her.....and then hope.

I stayed longer than I should have because I didn't fully realize or accept that this is not something that can easily be changed. I honestly thought, oh, now that we know he has Aspergers, and we've discussed all of the things that are missing, he will just magically do those things. I may have to remind him from time to time and provide some positive feedback but after a little while, it will just all come naturally. Optimism at its finest.

That doesn't happen and then comes the anger, hurt and frustration. Some towards you, but a lot towards just the situation and thinking....this should not be this hard! People do these things everyday without even giving it any thought!

This was where I really struggled as well. I thought C'MON, it cant be that hard to just say and do sweet things or tell me what's on your mind if the thoughts are there and you're just not verbalizing them! Then he told me a lot of times that he doesn't even THINK to say them...didn't even cross his mind. I was shocked. How could you not even THINK to ask me how my day was when I get home?? Are you that selfish?? I started seeing the layers....peel back one and we would hit another.

It took some time for me to fully acknowledge that these weren't things that he was making a conscious decision to not do - his brain just didn't make the connections, and that couldn't be forced and maybe not even improved upon.

From there it just gets more confusing because you and your partner find yourself analyzing every piece and questioning why this, how that, without ever seeming to make any true progress.

I would never condone any sort of violence no matter how frustrated someone is but I absolutely know she is reacting out of the buildup of her emotions that come spewing out because the situation feels out of control.

Throughout my relationship I fell further into a dark hole, my anxiety was sky high, I felt a dark cloud over me at all times, my self esteem was next to nothing. The longing for what wasn't there was eating me up inside. He was retracting, not eating properly, sleeping too much, couldn't think straight. We spent hours upon hours hashing through where we go from here. In the end, we had to walk away. I don't know what the future will ever hold for us but I'm at peace knowing we are no longer tearing each other apart.

Perhaps, start with a separation? See what it feels like to have no contact for a good 2-4 weeks. I can guarantee that the both of you will gain much needed clarity once you step away from the madness for a bit.

I hope both of you find your happiness again.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." - Albert Einstein
 
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You just said exactly what I believe is morally wrong - you said that autistic people "often" [do not disclose] their status as autistic in order "to find mates". How can you conceivably defend non-disclosure as fair to the NT mate? Are Aspies more important than NTs? Do you think NTs are not entitled to know that their potential mate has a ASD diagnosis with "social deficits, and often other difficulties associated with the condition"? Aspies who conceal their status in order to "find mates" should be shamed because it is wrong to the NT.

How is it morally wrong Mary Terry to disclose or not disclose? You don't really indicate specifically what that moral is. Do N/T's in relationships indicate all of their difficulties at the onset? Do they disclose their health problems, their previous relationships, their emotional problems? Do they have medical files with them that indicate their predilection for cancer or sexually transmitted diseases or other medical problems? Do they carry around a genetic map with them and show it to potential mates? They don't.

So your point is moot.

It would seem that no matter what you indicate, autism and it's social deficits is not something you truly understand. That in order to function in the world we have to 'pass' to find jobs, to have a family, to get an education.

We also have as much right to choose mates, work jobs, have children and make our way in the world as anyone else. We don't discriminate against people who are different from us.
 
Dear Mia:

You just said exactly what I believe is morally wrong - you said that autistic people "often" [do not disclose] their status as autistic in order "to find mates". How can you conceivably defend non-disclosure as fair to the NT mate? Are Aspies more important than NTs? Do you think NTs are not entitled to know that their potential mate has a ASD diagnosis with "social deficits, and often other difficulties associated with the condition"? Aspies who conceal their status in order to "find mates" should be shamed because it is wrong to the NT.

I don't know what you think I'm inferring as I clearly stated I do not believe my SIL's evil flows from her autism but from her being a bad person in general.

This website is not limited to autistics and I frequently see other NT commenters here. I am a long time active supporter of autistics and have been voluntarily tutoring autistics for over 5 years at my own expense and time to help them obtain GEDs (the U.S. equivalent of a high school diploma) in order to get jobs and/or attend college. I occasionally participate in this website because I learn things about autism that help me communicate with and teach my students what they need to learn in order to pass the GED examination. They often ask me questions about relationships, marital and otherwise, and I always tell them that honesty is the best policy. What do you think I should tell them instead of being honest?

It is sad that you sound like you are ashamed of being autistic rather than accepting who you are and using your special nature to enlighten the world about your uniqueness and autism in general. I'm sorry you feel that way.


Your perspective in theory and principle reflects a moral point of view- social equality. That's fine in a "perfect world". However in the case of autism it fails to consider a critical dynamic. That according to the CDC, for every one of us, there are 68 of you.

Which sadly translates on so many levels of communication that "It's your way with you, or the highway for us." You have the numbers- we don't. That for most of us we are routinely forced- even bullied to conform to a standard of communication and behavior we cannot fully master or even understand.

So the next best thing we can do is to mask and our traits and behaviors in as a "stopgap measure" to avoid constantly getting our social asses kicked and persecuted by a society dominated by mindsets who expect and demand social conformity on their terms- not ours. As best- or poorly as we can muster on an hourly or daily basis. Even though the process itself often exhausts us.

This dynamic inevitably forces many of us to hide who we are to survive on a daily basis without living a life of emotional misery. That moral honesty you speak of often comes at a severe price for us in the form of failed friendships and relationships. Usually based on two out of three considerations of Neurotypicals:

1) Those who want to understand and succeed doing so.
2) Those who try, but fail given the complexity of our neurology.

3) Those who are indifferent to understanding us, who default to expecting and demanding that it is we who must conform to their way of thinking. Even if and when it's not possible in whole or in part.

It isn't shame that drives this. It's survival in your social order. Even if and when it may involve our closest and most critical relationships. Made worse by a society that covets the very concept of majority rule. A concept that fundamentally fails to consider the impact of neurodiversity for a distinct social minority.
 
No, Mia, my point is not moot. It would be morally wrong for any potential spouse/mate to hide from the other person significant medical, psychiatric, sexual orientation, incurable disease, genetic issues and matters of that nature which could negatively impact the marriage, the relationship, and/or children born of that union. Honest, mature people disclose such matters to their mate regardless of whether they are ASD or NT. Failure to disclose something as significant as diagnosed autism in a relationship as significant as marriage is tantamount to purposeful deceit and is a terrible thing to do to the other person.

If you were in a relationship with another aspie, would you tell them of your diagnosis? Or do you advocate hiding your diagnosis only from NTs? Both NTs and aspies are entitled to chose their mates with full knowledge of conditions likely to affect the marriage. It is called "informed consent" to the marriage/relationship.

I'm sure many NTs do not disclose their known "negative" conditions to their mates and suspect their motives are the same as autistics' motives for their concealment: the desire for love and companionship and/or for someone to physically and financially take care of them because they refuse or are incapable of doing so for themselves. Neither NTs nor aspies should conceal these issues in a serious relationship. It just creates problems - usually painful divorce - down the road. Why embark on that journey at all?

BTW, my autistic students seem to deeply appreciate my efforts to help them acquire an education despite your conclusion that I do not understand them. I am so proud that many of them have passed the GED and gotten jobs, a few have married, and many of them stay in touch with me on social media. They seem to appreciate what I try to do for them and are not bitter about their circumstances. I accept them as they are (remember that I have autistic family members whom I love and support so I'm quite familiar with autism) and I urge them to accept themselves as they are and not to hide who they are. I don't try to change them and I certainly don't encourage them to lie.
 
Your perspective in theory and principle reflects a moral point of view- social equality. That's fine in a "perfect world". However in the case of autism it fails to consider a critical dynamic. That according to the CDC, for every one of us, there are 68 of you.

Which sadly translates on so many levels of communication that "It's your way with you, or the highway for us." You have the numbers- we don't. That for most of us we are routinely forced- even bullied to conform to a standard of communication and behavior we cannot fully master or even understand.

So the next best thing we can do is to mask and our traits and behaviors in as a "stopgap measure" to avoid constantly getting our social asses kicked and persecuted by a society dominated by mindsets who expect and demand social conformity on their terms- not ours. As best- or poorly as we can muster on an hourly or daily basis. Even though the process itself often exhausts us.

This dynamic inevitably forces many of us to hide who we are to survive on a daily basis without living a life of emotional misery. That moral honesty you speak of often comes at a severe price for us in the form of failed friendships and relationships. Usually based on two out of three considerations of Neurotypicals:

1) Those who want to understand and succeed doing so.
2) Those who try, but fail given the complexity of our neurology.

3) Those who are indifferent to understanding us, who default to expecting and demanding that it is we who must conform to their way of thinking. Even if and when it's not possible in whole or in part.

It isn't shame that drives this. It's survival in your social order. Even if and when it may involve our closest and most critical relationships. Made worse by a society that covets the very concept of majority rule. A concept that fundamentally fails to consider the impact of neurodiversity for a distinct social minority.
 
So....we're going to remember to discuss the topic
and not dissect each other personally, right?
 
This dynamic inevitably forces many of us to hide who we are to survive on a daily basis without living a life of emotional misery. That moral honesty you speak of often comes at a severe price for us in the form of failed friendships and relationships. Usually based on two out of three considerations of Neurotypicals:

1) Those who want to understand and succeed doing so.
2) Those who try, but fail given the complexity of our neurology.

3) Those who are indifferent to understanding us, who default to expecting and demanding that it is we who must conform to their way of thinking. Even if and when it's not possible in whole or in part.

It isn't shame that drives this. It's survival in your social order. Even if and when it may involve our closest and most critical relationships. Made worse by a society that covets the very concept of majority rule. A concept that fundamentally fails to consider the impact of neurodiversity for a distinct social minority.

Well said. I can truthfully say that I only pursued three of my romantic interests, one which led to her not being interested, the other two just weren't going to work for various reasons. Easy to get through those, but it was confusing all the same.

The two individuals that I did have relationships with did most if not all the pursuing. I made myself available, and things moved along mainly on their terms. One, my first marriage, she had some learning disabilities and she was able and willing to go along with my quirks and oddities, it was part of my allure, I suppose. We always got along well, enjoyed each others company and continued to reconnect and care about each other after we split. I believe that fell withing the first two considerations.

My current relationship is harder to grasp. There are definitely components of One and Two, but there have been considerable periods of number Three, and it largely stems from her frustration that I cannot be the kind of man she hoped I would be, and that we would have the kind of life she hoped we would have together.

I have struggled mightily to work towards those goals, in life and in our relationship, but either I am unable to maintain and persevere, I focus on one area, then several other areas suffer, or I really do not understand what it is we are trying to achieve or HOW we are going to achieve it.

I know it sounds dense, and I don't wish it to sound dismissive, but I simply do not understand, on a deep level, what motivates people to do what they do. I can understand on an intellectual level, of course; having a nice house, taking vacations, having lots of friends and family would be nice, but how do you juggle all that? how does it just seem to go hand in hand with all the other things?

I know what motivates me to do the things that interest me. It is purely the interest of exploration, observation, and feeling like I understand some profound yet basic principles of physical reality, the universe. For the most part, they have proven to have little or no value socially or monetarily, except for a few marketable skills and knowledge I have developed.

I once was very interested in social and psychological issues, but feel there are simply too many variables, and no discernible underlining principles, only culturally developed constructs and all the myriad of variables resulting from each individual having such varying life experiences. I have since compartmentalized my interest in social/psychological issues to the anecdotal, ie. hearing peoples stories, experiences, views. From there, I can see some similarities from one person to another, where there can be some goodwill formed from common experience and understanding.

I will not even try to "evaluate and diagnose" anyone due to the story they tell, and that is what I see happening in this sort of discussion, and on those websites that the OP refers to.
 
I am an absolute proponent of social equality, and I understand that many NTs do not and do not want to understand autism. THEY think autism is akin to un-medicated mental illness and they do not want to hang around with un-medicated mentally ill people. They don't know any better. I've spent the last 20+ years trying to explain autism to NTs and advocating the inclusion of autistics into every level of society where they wish to be.

My comments are limited to marital relationships which are different from employer-employee relationships or mere friendships. I guess I'm old fashioned enough to believe in the sanctity of marriage which must be based on honesty.
 
Well, in this instance they don't appear to be mutually exclusive. But that's just my opinion.

That's what I'm concerned about.
So I am saying let us NOT dissect each other personally.

This is such a lively thread.
Probably there are people who would prefer that it continue.
 
All my relationships with Neurotypical females failed. Though at the time neither them or myself had a clue that I was on the spectrum.

Had I been self-aware of my neurological profile I'm not sure I would have had the tools to maintain such a relationship. At the time I thought being myself was paramount for any relationship. But the truth of our neurological incompatibility was like running into a brick wall.

I suspect the only tool at my disposal had I been fully aware of my autism as I am today would in fact require some degree of masking. Some effort NOT to be myself to keep the peace.
 
My comments are limited to marital relationships which are different from employer-employee relationships or mere friendships.

So are mine.

But I have a track record of the price paid for that honesty you covet. A price that ultimately left me all alone in my 60s, haven given up on relationships altogether some 20 years ago.

Honesty killed all my relationships. In my own case, I just didn't realize it when I needed to. But even had my partners had a good understanding of my neurology they would still have expectations and a perspective that I would have fallen short of in compliance.

Though this is all about context. I don't mean to employ absolute and malevolent deceit. Merely that I should have attempted to mask my traits and behaviors rather than allow them exposed in plain site. A form of social compromise I was unaware of at the time.

Yet had I done so, even then there's no way I could have guaranteed my efforts would have amounted to a 50-50 partnership. No matter how moral or imperative it may seem to many. Control over our traits and behaviors doesn't usually translate into such an even split. Some of them we can work on to varying extents, while others are hard-wired and cannot be changed.
 
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No, Mia, my point is not moot. It would be morally wrong for any potential spouse/mate to hide from the other person significant medical, psychiatric, sexual orientation, incurable disease, genetic issues and matters of that nature which could negatively impact the marriage, the relationship, and/or children born of that union. Honest, mature people disclose such matters to their mate regardless of whether they are ASD or NT. Failure to disclose something as significant as diagnosed autism in a relationship as significant as marriage is tantamount to purposeful deceit and is a terrible thing to do to the other person.

This seems so familiar Mary Terry, it sounds quite a bit like eugenics.

Don't know of anyone who has ever disclosed medical histories before or during a relationship or after a marriage. The family prevalence for breast cancer or the elderly uncle with parkinsons disease or the parent with co-rectal cancer? Or for that matter manic depression which is often late onset? If this were valid, no one would be married, nor would they have children.
 
This seems so familiar Mary Terry, it sounds quite a bit like eugenics.

Don't know of anyone who has ever disclosed medical histories before or during a relationship or after a marriage. The family prevalence for breast cancer or the elderly uncle with parkinsons disease or the parent with co-rectal cancer? Or for that matter manic depression which is often late onset? If this were valid, no one would be married, nor would they have children.

Not to mention that many US states have liberalized their marriage requirements omitting blood tests and/or mandatory premarital physical exams. Most remaining medical requirements and considerations seem to focus on Venereal Disease.

If the law doesn't require it, is it reasonable to universally demand it ? Hmmmm. I suppose such considerations must ultimately be determined on an individual basis.
 
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Baloney, Mia. Virtually everyone I know in the NT world does disclose and discuss significant medical issues with their mate. Some seek genetic counseling to reduce/eliminate the passing of bad traits to their children. Some chose to never have children in order to avoid passing negative conditions to another generation. The mother of one of my best friends was a full blown paranoid schizophrenic. My friend and his wife chose to not have children because they did not want to pass that nightmarish condition on to their children. Their mutual decision is not eugenics.

Everyone is entitled to enter into a marriage with as much knowledge and foresight as possible. It promotes marital stability and happiness which are very important to children born to the marriage.

Has it worked out for you to conceal your autism from a spouse or potential spouse? Why or why not?
 
Baloney, Mia. Virtually everyone I know in the NT world does disclose and discuss significant medical issues with their mate. Some seek genetic counseling to reduce/eliminate the passing of bad traits to their children. Some chose to never have children in order to avoid passing negative conditions to another generation. The mother of one of my best friends was a full blown paranoid schizophrenic. My friend and his wife chose to not have children because they did not want to pass that nightmarish condition on to their children.

Of the few hundred N/T's I've known, people I've worked with or come in contact with over the years this has never happened. It might happen specifically if you work in the medical field. But not outside of it.

Your world and perspective seems quite specific and narrow. And it does sound as if you are a proponent of eugenics, because that is essentially what this is all about. Neurotypicals are absolutely as withholding in relationships with others and there are as many if not more serious problems with their genetic inheritance.
 
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