NT and Aspie Communication

[Grumpy Cat]

Absolutely! Any time I've actually done or said something wrong, I'm happy to apologize. I find it illogical, however, to be expected to apologize for something that was perceived by another, due to their own lack of understanding or incorrect assumptions.

I am at a disadvantage, though, as I've had precious few examples to follow. In my experience, with the NTs I've personally interacted with, I've never once received an apology ... not even in the face of irrefutable evidence. Maybe an NT could model the practice for us?

Yes, I will. I apologize to you, KassieMac, if I have said anything that is upsetting to you. That is not my intention.

I can, in my way, see how you would be tired of having to deal with NT's all the time and that you wish you could have a place where you could let your hair down. At times (lately actually), since I have opened these new threads I have never felt more alone and the minority and it's very uncomfortable for me. But I have found how important bridging the gap in communication between Aspies and NT's is after talking with my friend for awhile. He has told me about his past friendships and relationships and most (to my knowledge) have failed because of communication problems. I'm hoping that Aspie's and NT's alike can get some helpful information from these threads. I know I have.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

This. I don't mind offering an apology; and even less if I'm responsible for a misunderstanding. But apologies for the sake of what people deem as "proper manners" while I don't feel I did anything wrong or if the problem lies with someone else because I'm totally confident and sure that I'm not wrong, I'm not going to apologize.

I've had a few situations where people thought I was wrong and we had an argument. I never apologized though I just settled with the "let's agree to disagree" type of statement. I'm not all butthurt over it, as long as others don't keep going on about it and just leave it be as well.

OMG!!! King Oni, my friend said the same thing about our last disagreement - "We'll have to agree to disagree". I was like "What? What does that mean?" I had said that our disagreement had hurt my feelings. Normally as an NT and a woman, I deal in "feelings" when someone close to me upsets me - other people I deal "logically" and will apologize only if I'm in the wrong or I can tell they are needing me to apologize. For me, having to ask for an apology means it's not sincere. With the "We'll have to agree to disagree" it feels to me that the disagreement is not addressed. I need closure on a disagreement. Take me and my friend -- if the situation comes up again that caused our disagreement, am I supposed to get mad again? That's what compromising is for - even if we go with what he thinks is right I need to know we have come to that compromise so I know not to have my feelings hurt again. I don't know how to do "We'll have to agree to disagree".

 

[King_Oni]

OMG!!! King Oni, my friend said the same thing about our last disagreement - "We'll have to agree to disagree". I was like "What? What does that mean?" I had said that our disagreement had hurt my feelings. Normally as an NT and a woman, I deal in "feelings" when someone close to me upsets me - other people I deal "logically" and will apologize only if I'm in the wrong or I can tell they are needing me to apologize. For me, having to ask for an apology means it's not sincere. With the "We'll have to agree to disagree" it feels to me that the disagreement is not addressed. I need closure on a disagreement. Take me and my friend -- if the situation comes up again that caused our disagreement, am I supposed to get mad again? That's what compromising is for - even if we go with what he thinks is right I need to know we have come to that compromise so I know not to have my feelings hurt again. I don't know how to do "We'll have to agree to disagree".

Well... in worst case I'd end a friendship, if people would get really upset and annoyed over the fact that we'll just have to find a way to not annoy each other over a disagreement. For me being in a disagreement and not coming to terms with that means that we both just accept that we can't come to terms and said topic is probably best left alone, since it will most likely raise an issue again. What should I do? Expect my friend to agree with me even if it goes totally against someones beliefs? If I had a friend, who would push his beliefs upon me, so we don't have the disagreement again,I'd be long gone already. I'm not making concessions for anyone (and I kindly leave people out of my life who make concessions for others) and thus agreeing that we can't come to terms about this and said topic is best left alone is actually the best option (at least for me it is).

I've had arguments with my girlfriend and we both had a different opinion on something. I'm not going to tell her that she has to settle with my point of view... nor will I bend over and accept hers. The best I can do is accept that our opinions differ. If I can't even accept that opinions differ, I would really wonder why someone is my friend or if my notion of friendship needs working on. Expecting someone to have the exact same ideals feels like an impossible thing to achieve and find, but mileage may vary on the type of ideals.

Perhaps this also opens up an entire debate on friends, friendship and how to deal with disagreement with these people. It also opens up questions like "can you be friends with someone who doesn't share your views and ideals?"... and that's just the tip.

But that's how I see it and doesn't mean you should

 

[KassieMac]

Yes, I will. I apologize to you, KassieMac, if I have said anything that is upsetting to you. That is not my intention.

I can, in my way, see how you would be tired of having to deal with NT's all the time and that you wish you could have a place where you could let your hair down. At times (lately actually), since I have opened these new threads I have never felt more alone and the minority and it's very uncomfortable for me. But I have found how important bridging the gap in communication between Aspies and NT's is after talking with my friend for awhile. He has told me about his past friendships and relationships and most (to my knowledge) have failed because of communication problems. I'm hoping that Aspie's and NT's alike can get some helpful information from these threads. I know I have.

I appreciate that, thank you very much. I can definitely relate to how you feel ... when you said "I have never felt more alone and the minority and it's very uncomfortable for me" ... you've accurately described my entire life, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It sounds like you have a good rapport with this friend, which is encouraging for all of us. Communication problems have plagued me as well, since whenever I ask a question people seem to read in some measure of judgment or aggression, when it's simply just a question. When they refuse to answer (but attack me instead) it feels like they see me as less-than-human and not deserving of communication, which hurts deeply. I understand you started these threads to bridge the gap, but I wonder if analyzing our differences in such a way is putting too much focus on them ... maybe it would be better if future threads focused on commonalities instead of differences. I've noticed that when people find some common ground they naturally become more accepting of differences. Just my two cents' worth.

 

[Judge]

That's interesting. Is "We'll have to agree to disagree" considered something negative? Is closure always a must? Can't say I've given it a lot of thought in the past.

I've always considered it a concerted effort to avoid trouble just around a corner. A way for both parties to simply "stand down". But I suppose it depends on the nature of a disagreement. Worse still, if it's argued over whether or not a subject is truly important or not.

 

[KassieMac]

Well... in worst case I'd end a friendship, if people would get really upset and annoyed over the fact that we'll just have to find a way to not annoy each other over a disagreement. For me being in a disagreement and not coming to terms with that means that we both just accept that we can't come to terms and said topic is probably best left alone, since it will most likely raise an issue again. What should I do? Expect my friend to agree with me even if it goes totally against someones beliefs? If I had a friend, who would push his beliefs upon me, so we don't have the disagreement again,I'd be long gone already. I'm not making concessions for anyone (and I kindly leave people out of my life who make concessions for others) and thus agreeing that we can't come to terms about this and said topic is best left alone is actually the best option (at least for me it is).

I've had arguments with my girlfriend and we both had a different opinion on something. I'm not going to tell her that she has to settle with my point of view... nor will I bend over and accept hers. The best I can do is accept that our opinions differ. If I can't even accept that opinions differ, I would really wonder why someone is my friend or if my notion of friendship needs working on. Expecting someone to have the exact same ideals feels like an impossible thing to achieve and find, but mileage may vary on the type of ideals.

Perhaps this also opens up an entire debate on friends, friendship and how to deal with disagreement with these people. It also opens up questions like "can you be friends with someone who doesn't share your views and ideals?"... and that's just the tip.

But that's how I see it and doesn't mean you should

I see it as a matter of respecting boundaries. I can agree to disagree on areas of opinion or personal preferences, and to me that means agreeing to respect each other equally. For example: If I don't like Italian food and my dear friend doesn't like Mexican food, I might suggest Chinese. I wouldn't invite them out for Mexican, because that's pushing boundaries or trying to assert power over them. If they invite me out for deli sandwiches, great. But if halfway there they change their mind & pull into an Italian restaurant, I'd be very upset. If they feel their preferences are more important than our friendship, then I'm happy to leave them alone to enjoy their Italian food. If we can respect each other's boundaries, we can enjoy a good steak and have a great time. Obviously the food is just a metaphor to demonstrate the concept ... but now I'm hungry for steak! (Darn there's no steak emoji!)

 

[Ereth]

That's interesting. Is "We'll have to agree to disagree" considered something negative? Is closure always a must? Can't say I've given it a lot of thought in the past.

I've always considered it a concerted effort to avoid trouble just around a corner. A way for both parties to simply "stand down". But I suppose it depends on the nature of a disagreement. Worse still, if it's argued over whether or not a subject is truly important or not.

I think it really depends on the context in which it's used. It can be a truce flag, so to speak, or it can be interpreted as passive-aggressive behavior.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

Well... in worst case I'd end a friendship, if people would get really upset and annoyed over the fact that we'll just have to find a way to not annoy each other over a disagreement. For me being in a disagreement and not coming to terms with that means that we both just accept that we can't come to terms and said topic is probably best left alone, since it will most likely raise an issue again. What should I do? Expect my friend to agree with me even if it goes totally against someones beliefs? If I had a friend, who would push his beliefs upon me, so we don't have the disagreement again,I'd be long gone already. I'm not making concessions for anyone (and I kindly leave people out of my life who make concessions for others) and thus agreeing that we can't come to terms about this and said topic is best left alone is actually the best option (at least for me it is).

I've had arguments with my girlfriend and we both had a different opinion on something. I'm not going to tell her that she has to settle with my point of view... nor will I bend over and accept hers. The best I can do is accept that our opinions differ. If I can't even accept that opinions differ, I would really wonder why someone is my friend or if my notion of friendship needs working on. Expecting someone to have the exact same ideals feels like an impossible thing to achieve and find, but mileage may vary on the type of ideals.

Perhaps this also opens up an entire debate on friends, friendship and how to deal with disagreement with these people. It also opens up questions like "can you be friends with someone who doesn't share your views and ideals?"... and that's just the tip.

But that's how I see it and doesn't mean you should

I agree with you when it comes to certain things. My friend thinks differently about religion, but he respects that I'm religious and he'll listen if I have something to say - just not comment on it. Sometimes I wish he would pipe in with something, but at the same time I'm just appreciative that he listens to me.
The subject surrounding our disagreement was that we have different definitions of what "loyalty" in a friendship is. Something that happened made me "feel" that he was being disloyal to me. When he explained that he didn't do what HE thought was disloyal, I explained being disloyal had a different definition with NT's and I explained what that was. That's when the "we'll have to agree to disagree" came up. My friendships and loyalty are very important to me. If he were to do the same thing again, I would be hurt again. I know what he believes to be disloyal and he knows what I believe to be disloyal. For me, I will not do what he believes to be disloyal because I know it would hurt him. Is he going to do the same for me? I don't get it. And if he knows what upsets me and keeps doing it, that would just tell me that he doesn't care if he hurts my feelings or not. For me, actions speak louder than words.

Another thing that bothers me is how quickly Aspie men (no experience with Aspie women yet) are so able to drop friends so quick without thinking twice. If a friend can be dropped that quick out of your life, was it ever a REAL friendship? And after seeing this happen, I'm afraid to tell my Aspie friend that I have now if I'm upset at all for fear that he'll just cut me out of his life. Are all Aspie men like this?

 

[Grumpy Cat]

I appreciate that, thank you very much. I can definitely relate to how you feel ... when you said "I have never felt more alone and the minority and it's very uncomfortable for me" ... you've accurately described my entire life, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It sounds like you have a good rapport with this friend, which is encouraging for all of us. Communication problems have plagued me as well, since whenever I ask a question people seem to read in some measure of judgment or aggression, when it's simply just a question. When they refuse to answer (but attack me instead) it feels like they see me as less-than-human and not deserving of communication, which hurts deeply. I understand you started these threads to bridge the gap, but I wonder if analyzing our differences in such a way is putting too much focus on them ... maybe it would be better if future threads focused on commonalities instead of differences. I've noticed that when people find some common ground they naturally become more accepting of differences. Just my two cents' worth.

If it seems that I have not been answering any of your questions, I didn't mean to do that. In my mind, I have been trying to answer everyone as best as I can. If I was attacking you, it was because I was feeling frustrated with trying to explain myself. If I say anything that bothers you, please let me know so I can correct it.
When it comes to me and my friend, we have almost everything in common (except religion which we have agreed to not fully discuss and we respect each others beliefs). What comes up all the time (mainly with me) has to do with communication. When he explains himself, it is very straight forward and makes sense to me then. My problem is with the way my mind works. Example: I was needing his address to send him this afghan (that will probably be done by my next lifetime *joke*) and I just said "I'll be needing your address to send this throw." I'm laughing about it now, but he said "When you're done with the throw I'll give it to you." My NTness said, 'why am I having to ask for the address again? Why doesn't he just give it to me now and be done?' That lead me to think if I have to ask for the address again that probably means he either doesn't want to give me his address for some reason and feels uncomfortable or he really doesn't want the throw but just doesn't want to come out and tell me.

THE REAL REASON: When I finally asked him, he said that he was moving and he didn't know what address he would be at when the throw was done. I was thinking 'well that makes sense', I just didn't have all of the information. At the same time, he thought I was weird because I was making such a big deal needing the address before the throw was even done. I explained that I plan ahead and have to have all "my ducks in a row" so to speak. I thought having to ask for the address again was also a unnecessary bother for the both of us. The reason that I was making such a big deal was also because I have put a lot of time and money into this throw and wanted to make sure it was shipped correctly so he got it and no one else.

THE POINT: my mind would have never come up with him moving to another address.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

I think it really depends on the context in which it's used. It can be a truce flag, so to speak, or it can be interpreted as passive-aggressive behavior.

That's it, Ereth! You get it!!!

 

[Grumpy Cat]

I see it as a matter of respecting boundaries. I can agree to disagree on areas of opinion or personal preferences, and to me that means agreeing to respect each other equally. For example: If I don't like Italian food and my dear friend doesn't like Mexican food, I might suggest Chinese. I wouldn't invite them out for Mexican, because that's pushing boundaries or trying to assert power over them. If they invite me out for deli sandwiches, great. But if halfway there they change their mind & pull into an Italian restaurant, I'd be very upset. If they feel their preferences are more important than our friendship, then I'm happy to leave them alone to enjoy their Italian food. If we can respect each other's boundaries, we can enjoy a good steak and have a great time. Obviously the food is just a metaphor to demonstrate the concept ... but now I'm hungry for steak! (Darn there's no steak emoji!)

Yes! You get what I'm saying too, KassieMac!!! Is it just a guy Aspie thing then?

 

[KassieMac]

Yes! You get what I'm saying too, KassieMac!!! Is it just a guy Aspie thing then?

I don't think that's specifically an Aspie thing ... it sounds to me more like a control issue. The types of games played by people who just like to have their way, and view me as being at somewhat of a 'lower status' ... it could be male v female, parent v child, someone with a higher status at work ... I'm guessing here, but it just seems like someone who is insecure trying to prove their importance. Being a 5'2" minority non-management female Aspie, I think I represent the 'Perfect Storm' ... so I get it from just about everyone. Lucky me!

 

[Tourist]

"Agree to disagree" is a rather empty and pointless concept/expression, since it doesn't provide any resolution to conflict. It functions as an escape mechanism, safe way to withdraw or avoid something.

An example:
Lets say there's someone who's abusing someone under random set of assumptions, that in his mind justifies his harmful actions.
Then there's the one getting abused, who thinks that abuser has no right to do what he's doing.
Abused one confronts abuser and expresses his frustrations, asking abuser to stop. Abuser still clings to his assumptions. Both parties "Agree to disagree".
Abuse goes on.

 

[Grumpy Cat]

I don't think that's specifically an Aspie thing ... it sounds to me more like a control issue. The types of games played by people who just like to have their way, and view me as being at somewhat of a 'lower status' ... it could be male v female, parent v child, someone with a higher status at work ... I'm guessing here, but it just seems like someone who is insecure trying to prove their importance. Being a 5'2" minority non-management female Aspie, I think I represent the 'Perfect Storm' ... so I get it from just about everyone. Lucky me!

I really hope that's not it. I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe he was doing like Ereth said and making a truce possibly because he didn't have the energy to deal with it at the time. I'll have to think about it some more I guess. Thank you for your thoughts, though.

 

[King_Oni]

"Agree to disagree" is a rather empty and pointless concept/expression, since it doesn't provide any resolution to conflict. It functions as an escape mechanism, safe way to withdraw or avoid something.

An example:
Lets say there's someone who's abusing someone under random set of assumptions, that in his mind justifies his harmful actions.
Then there's the one getting abused, who thinks that abuser has no right to do what he's doing.
Abused one confronts abuser and expresses his frustrations, asking abuser to stop. Abuser still clings to his assumptions. Both parties "Agree to disagree".
Abuse goes on.

I'm probably way too agressive with this then. If abuse continues I'm going to take care of it, either verbally or physically.

I'm always under the impression that agreeing to disagree works best if people are in good understanding.

And it does come with mutual respect. Letting abuse continue has nothing to do with respect or being in good understanding of eachother.

As for the other part of your post; perhaps it's an escape mechanism, but I'm not always interested in lenghty arguments in an attempt to convert me and make me see it "from the other side". Since that's actually the reason I'd want to argue with someone... To convert someone to my view. Yes I'm thickheaded and stubborn, so there's that. But I guess I also never really had people argue and try to convince me otherwise. Afterall, you can't argue with a madman, since he will hurl absurdity at you

Another thing that bothers me is how quickly Aspie men (no experience with Aspie women yet) are so able to drop friends so quick without thinking twice. If a friend can be dropped that quick out of your life, was it ever a REAL friendship? And after seeing this happen, I'm afraid to tell my Aspie friend that I have now if I'm upset at all for fear that he'll just cut me out of his life. Are all Aspie men like this?

I don't know if it's just aspie men, or aspie specific. I do know my girlfriend will drop friends over arguments as well. And she's an aspie woman. Though I wouldn't want to generalize all aspie women (nor men) over such behaviour

 

[Tourist]

I'm probably way too agressive with this then. If abuse continues I'm going to take care of it, either verbally or physically.

I'm always under the impression that agreeing to disagree works best if people are in good understanding.

And it does come with mutual respect. Letting abuse continue has nothing to do with respect or being in good understanding of eachother.

As for the other part of your post; perhaps it's an escape mechanism, but I'm not always interested in lenghty arguments in an attempt to convert me and make me see it "from the other side". Since that's actually the reason I'd want to argue with someone... To convert someone to my view. Yes I'm thickheaded and stubborn, so there's that. But I guess I also never really had people argue and try to convince me otherwise. Afterall, you can't argue with a madman, since he will hurl absurdity at you



I don't know if it's just aspie men, or aspie specific. I do know my girlfriend will drop friends over arguments as well. And she's an aspie woman. Though I wouldn't want to generalize all aspie women (nor men) over such behaviour

I'm sorry for being nosy, since you replied back to someone else regarding your girlfriend, but are you, by any chance, afraid that she might break up with you?

EDIT: In case you do, accept the fear and let go of it. Emotions cloud reasoning, therefore fear is what blocks you from understanding her.

 

[Judge]

Another thing that bothers me is how quickly Aspie men (no experience with Aspie women yet) are so able to drop friends so quick without thinking twice. If a friend can be dropped that quick out of your life, was it ever a REAL friendship? And after seeing this happen, I'm afraid to tell my Aspie friend that I have now if I'm upset at all for fear that he'll just cut me out of his life. Are all Aspie men like this?

That's all news to me. For me I'd think that friends are too hard to come by to drop them that easily. The only guy I knew like that was NT. But then he pretty much left his whole family when he fled Cuba in 1981. Never looked back.

But do people differentiate between online and offline friendships in this regard? I'm not sure. Maybe that's closer to your question...

That would be ugly for anyone (Aspie or NT) to do that as a control mechanism.

 

[Christy]

Another thing that bothers me is how quickly Aspie men (no experience with Aspie women yet) are so able to drop friends so quick without thinking twice. If a friend can be dropped that quick out of your life, was it ever a REAL friendship? And after seeing this happen, I'm afraid to tell my Aspie friend that I have now if I'm upset at all for fear that he'll just cut me out of his life. Are all Aspie men like this?

I think like all traits on the spectrum, this is something that doesn't apply to all whether they are male or female; but this is one of the traits I have.

To be bluntly honest, the only people in my life that I have known for longer than 5 years are family. The group I have known for 5 years are a bit unique, and I have considered moving on from that group many times.

I find it very hard to connect with people, and when I do, there is normally an element of control that creeps into the relationship over time which inevitably drives me to walk away. I don't understand what it is about me that seems to draw this out of the nicest of people, but they tend to treat me like I am in need of a parent, and then I feel pressured to follow their advice. I know they are well meaning, but I REALLY don't like this sort of pressure. It's one of the fastest ways to get me offside and as I don't like confrontation, I just withdraw.

Don't doubt though that the friendship was real while it lasted. I would do almost anything for the people I consider friends.

 

[King_Oni]

I'm sorry for being nosy, since you replied back to someone else regarding your girlfriend, but are you, by any chance, afraid that she might break up with you?

EDIT: In case you do, accept the fear and let go of it. Emotions cloud reasoning, therefore fear is what blocks you from understanding her.

Nope I don't worry about that at all. And if she does, so be it.

I've dated (presumably) aspies before with a similar mindset, so I'm pretty familiar in how to deal with it.

Similarly, would my girlfriend be afraid I would break up with her? As far as I know and understand her, it's not really a concern of hers either.

By now we're pretty tuned to each other and we rarely have any minor disagreements at all anyway. But then again, we're probably jus trying to have as much fun as possible. It doesn't make our relationship less serious, but I think we just both don't do the "heavy" stuff in a relationship as much.

 

[Rudy Schmidt]

I have an Aspie question.

Do Aspie's ever apologize or are apologies seen as illogical?

I actually have the opposite problem, in that I apologize far too much. I'm trying to cut down on it, honestly, because I think I'm doing myself a disservice by apologizing when somebody else knocks into me or has some other bloopers. I'm just that afraid of confrontation.

Of course, it could also be a British thing.