Empathy - Do you feel it?

[Progster]

Using logical thinking to understand another person's feelings is how the AS/Asperger population subconsciously or consciously compensate for the lack of cognitive empathy.

In a similar situation, I am able to emotionally intuit how the person feels. I feel the sadness from their perspective while I am simultaneously aware that I cannot logically understand or comprehend their experience. The sensation doesn't stress me out and I am able to respond comfortingly. The words and behaviour I express are particular to the person and there is a reciprocal mirroring of feeling. They feel that I can feel them.

My AS father and brother don't know what to do in situations that require cognitive empathy. I notice that they try to logic a response. Onlookers perceive their awkwardness. It is what it is.

Thanks for explaining. It is a misunderstanding on my part, as I thought that logical thinking to understand emotions from the context of the situation and cognitive empathy were the same thing.

 

[Mr Allen]

I read somewhere that a common symptom of Asperger's is lack of empathy.

 

[Thinx]

Hi again Falcon. Neither of the articles you now reference refer to autism as you are aware no doubt. Sometimes it can be misleading to link individual experiments that do not address the groups you are discussing to an idea about those groups.

 

[Falcon]

Hi again Falcon. Neither of the articles you now reference refer to autism as you are aware no doubt. Sometimes it can be misleading to link individual experiments that do not address the groups you are discussing to an idea about those groups.

Hi Thinx. Yup, I'm aware. I deliberately chose a study that did not reference autism so as to shift from a specific to a general frame of reference.

Point: what current research finds is that the ability to feel cognitive empathy is linked to a distinct brain empathy system, that is separate from the system which processes emotional empathy. Without the necessary grey matter, certain experiences are not possible since there isn't the wiring available.

This applies to the general population, not only the AS population. I'll add this explanation to my previous post.

 

[GrownupGirl]

I think I have more empathy for fictional characters, animals and even bugs and insects than I do for other human beings. I'm on the verge of turning into a complete misanthropist. A few months before my diagnosis and for several months after my growing hatred of the human race combined with living for several years in a non-aspergers-friendly environment made me do and say things that got me into a lot of trouble. Even though I've been living on my own now for nearly two decades I'm always afraid I will one day again be forced to live in a home for severely disabled people or the hospital.

 

[SusanLR]

I read somewhere that a common symptom of Asperger's is lack of empathy.

That has been said about Asperger's traits. I have read this too and the types of questions designed to bring this out in the ASD personality diagnosis tests are intermingled in the test questions.
Here is a link on the biology of the brain in Aspergers and empathy stating some of the things I have listed below.
Neuroscience Sheds Light on Why People with Asperger's Syndrome Lack Empathy | Psych Central

The findings on physical neural network wiring and empathy are what I see as a more scientific way of understanding why some do have empathy and some don't and a spectrum of intensity in between.
I haven't seen any sub-groups listed with these tests except those with sociopathic personality disorder.

1. Pain, emotional or physical, fires off the pain centre of the brain when pain is to self.

2. The same pain centre fires off when seeing someone or an animal hurting, killed or emotionally distressed, other than self. Or hearing of mass painful situations such as war, massacres, or the death of someone. *
This is the neurological test findings for having empathy.

When viewing these *situations happening or hear of it happening to others does not cause the pain centre to fire. Then there is no empathy. No compassion is felt. No bodily reactions or emotional distress.

The only sub- group listed in the neurological tests were the sociopathics.
When veiwing these situations, the pain centres do not fire either, but can go a step beyond to firing the pleasure centre of the brain causing anything from a calming effect to excitation or arousal.

This type of testing was using groups of people with no known mental illness. Here the empathatic pain arousal centre fired vs mild to severe sociopaths where the pain centre did not fire and on some the pleasure centre did instead.

One could try a simple test on self:
Watch a very graphic horror movie, an episode of psychopathic analysis such as Criminal Minds, or
even the news with some real life graphic content.
Now pay notice to how you feel physically and emotionally.
Do the scenes cause feelings of compassion, shock, mental or physical upset?
Or a neutral don't care?
Or instead of jumping at a scary scene or feeling ill from a bloody body scene, there is a calmness?

Professor Psychopath... (Instinct) series quote.

 

[Falcon]

One could try a simple test on self:
Watch a very graphic horror movie, an episode of psychopathic analysis such as Criminal Minds, or
even the news with some real life graphic content.
Now pay notice to how you feel physically and emotionally.
Do the scenes cause feelings of compassion, shock, mental or physical upset?
Or a neutral don't care?
Or instead of jumping at a scary scene or feeling ill from a bloody body scene, there is a calmness?

Television or bystander viewing tests a lack of all types of empathy. It conflates emotional and cognitive empathy.

Personal distress is emotional empathy. The consensus in neuroscience separates emotional and cognitive empathy when studying the AS population. This is because some (not all) segments of the AS population are capable of emotional empathy, which is the distressing feelings felt when watching distressing scenes.

When sociologists and psychologists say that the lack of empathy is a symptom of AS, they are using "empathy" as a layperson shorthand for what neuroscientists define as "cognitive empathy." This is the precise type of empathy which is commonly lacking, and it is due to neurology.

There is ongoing research to differentiate between brain empathy systems in the AS population. Here is a compilation of preliminary data on AS individuals:

Differentiating Cognitive and Emotional Empathy in Individuals with Asperger Syndrome

when I see a person whose family member died, and I understand through logical thinking that they are sad, but don't feel sad myself

This is a better test for cognitive empathy: the inability to accurately perceive another person's feelings from their perspective, through feeling their sadness and not your own. It is not a matter of logical understanding and imitating cues of sadness. It is about intuitive, interactive, reciprocal emotions, where their feelings guide an accurate, proportionate feeling in you. [Edit to emphasise: Disproportionate distress is not a measure.]

For those with cognitive empathy, this is instant and instinctual. It isn't intellectual.

I hope my insight helps. It requires understanding that the way we experience emotions is not universal. That is the beauty of cognitive empathy, because it enables us to interact on a personal level that is wordless.

 

[Progster]

This is a better test for cognitive empathy: the inability to accurately perceive another person's feelings from their perspective, through feeling their sadness and not your own. It is not a matter of logical understanding and imitating cues of sadness. It is about intuitive, interactive, reciprocal emotions, where their feelings guide an accurate, proportionate feeling in you.

For those with cognitive empathy, this is instant and instinctual. It isn't intellectual.

I hope my insight helps. It requires understanding that the way we experience emotions is not universal. That is the beauty of cognitive empathy, because it enables us to interact on a personal level that is wordless

I see, thank you - in that case, I lack cognitive empathy. This is a revelation for me. I wasn't even aware that people could perceive another person's feelings through feeling their emotion and not my own. For me, empathy has always been about understanding a person's predicament, working out how they feel and then myself feeling bad because I know that they are in a bad predicament, then trying to work out what I can do to help.

 

[Propianotuner]

I see, thank you - in that case, I lack cognitive empathy. This is a revelation for me. I wasn't even aware that people could perceive another person's feelings through feeling their emotion and not my own. For me, empathy has always been about understanding a person's predicament, working out how they feel and then myself feeling bad because I know that they are in a bad predicament, then trying to work out what I can do to help.

So many different people with ASD, at least as far as I've seen, report having compassion and wanting to come up with some kind of practical advice or help. Life's full of hard situations, though, and often people just want to be understood on some level, needing emotional support more than anything else.

 

[Propianotuner]

Situations come and go, and many times people can remember better occasions when they felt like authentic emotional empathy was going on, more clearly than the situations themselves.

 

[Progster]

So many different people with ASD, at least as far as I've seen, report having compassion and wanting to come up with some kind of practical advice or help. Life's full of hard situations, though, and often people just want to be understood on some level, needing emotional support more than anything else.

I get frustrated when people just want to offer emotional support and not practical help. If I ask for help, I want practical help, advice, suggestions. Just words don't solve anything for me. I wish they could! Another difference between myself and most other people.

 

[Propianotuner]

I get frustrated when people just want to offer emotional support and not practical help. If I ask for help, I want practical help, advice, suggestions. Just words don't solve anything for me. I wish they could! Another difference between myself and most other people.

The words offered often don't sound substantive and they're there to indicate more meaningful emotional subtext.

 

[Progster]

The words offered often don't sound substantive and they're there to indicate more meaningful emotional subtext.

Yes, and I'm not aware of the emotional subcontext or not receptive to it, and just get frustrated

 

[Falcon]

I see, thank you - in that case, I lack cognitive empathy. This is a revelation for me. I wasn't even aware that people could perceive another person's feelings through feeling their emotion and not my own. For me, empathy has always been about understanding a person's predicament, working out how they feel and then myself feeling bad because I know that they are in a bad predicament, then trying to work out what I can do to help.

Even if a person has the capacity for cognitive empathy, they may not have the self-awareness to use the ability, or to be kind. Example being friends of my former partner's.

My former partner was often unaware when his "friends" would tease him. I used to get quite irritated and protective on his behalf, since I could feel their condescension. He couldn't, though, so he didn't take offense.

I never teased him. It isn't in my nature to tease people, anyway, and I think it is lousy to do so just because someone doesn't "get" it.

 

[Progster]

My former partner was often unaware when his "friends" would tease him.

I have this issue, too.

I think it is lousy to do so just because someone doesn't "get" it.

Totally agree. I had a really hard time in childhood and adolescence because of this. I still have difficulties.

 

[Propianotuner]

Yes, and I'm not aware of the emotional subcontext or not receptive to it, and just get frustrated

It's okay that you're different in this respect, Progster. In fact from what I can see you're often a fine conversation partner.

 

[Falcon]

The lack of cognitive empathy is the undoing of many AS/NT relationships, because the actions arising from mismatched cognitive empathy accumulate. It is an empathy incompatibility that is neither person's fault, because there is no intent to harm on either side. Nonetheless, harm occurs, whether in romantic or family relationships.

That is not to say that unaware NT, who have the capacity but the inability to apply cognitive empathy, get a free pass. Similar actions by them include an intent to harm.

I had a really hard time in childhood and adolescence because of this. I still have difficulties.

Although you may not feel the condescension, you are able to discern from their actions that they are being unkind. That is sufficient to judge them. They are not good people.

 

[GrownupGirl]

Lacking empathy is not the same as having no empathy at all. I'm so sick of NTs thinking that we're all cold and stone-hearted axe murderers... I've never murdered an axe in my life.

 

[VJCJ0628]

when I was younger I did have empathy sometimes but not when I personally relate to the other person situation or it's not something I personally did not experienced, Later I learned how to better put myself in other's shoes, maybe because I have been in need of sympathy or empathy for my own inabilities and situations

Now while I have improved greatly with empathy I will struggle to express it properly (my wife has told more more then a few times I don't comfort her when she needs it all the time)

I struggle with the expression of it and I sometimes don't have it in the moment but afterwards or in reflecting later after the fact

 

[Falcon]

Lacking empathy is not the same as having no empathy at all.

Not at all! The problem is how precision is lost in translation, from scientists to the general public.

Scientists have always been careful to differentiate cognitive empathy from emotional empathy. By the time it reaches mainstream media, it is shortened to "empathy." Most people don't double-check their understanding of words. They assume.

Ergo, conflation. AS = no empathy = no emotion.

Most people are not smart.