Christian concept of "Faith" question

[Magna]

I am sorry, but I have no idea what that means. Are you referring to God dividing and conquering?

I just meant from a biblical perspective 45,000 different denominations could be "the work of the devil" in an interest of dividing them. A modern day tower of Babel.

 

[Fino]

In the story, he had evidence of seeing the crucifixion and the burial. All I have is a 3rd hand account written years after and then rewritten and revised many times. Like I said, I have a very weak faith gene, if any.

If the only evidence you have witnessed in your life is this 3rd hand account, I don't believe that really indicates weak faith. You have no basis for believing this account over the accounts of any other. What would lead a person to conclude these stories are true simply by reading them and being told they are true? I fully support the right to unbelief when faced with no viable proof for belief.

 

[Fino]

I just meant from a biblical perspective 45,000 different denominations could be "the work of the devil" in an interest of dividing them. A modern day tower of Babel.

I agree. Dismissing the truth of a claim based on the fact that there are many other claims is not rational.

 

[The Pandector]

I enjoyed reading the different responses. I love this sort of topic, and love listening to people's varying point of views.

I think that any useful discussion on a topic needs to first establish basic definitions. I mean, it does no good trying to identify triangles unless we first agree upon a definition that explains what parameters constitute a shape being a triangle. I used this example from Meditations, since the previous poster mentioned the belief in one's own existence.

Likewise, it becomes difficult to properly answer a question about "God" when there are so many possible definitions that we could use. Even if we assume the poster means a monotheistic God, since the word "God" is capitalized, are we also assuming an "all-powerful" being? What about omnibenevolent? Even if we assume that this God is omnipotent, could we be discussing a deistic version of God that starts existence only to indifferently watch it go whatever direction it wants after that?

Sorry, I am not trying to be obtuse. It just becomes a challenge to even address the question unless we have some basic parameters.

Still, fun topic.

Yes, one has to make assumptions just to answer the question. It’s examining those assumptions that tells us about the respondent.

 

[Mary Terry]

Just one little observation about this interesting thread. Muslims believe in God, too, but they are not Christians. They believe that Jesus was a prophet, like their Mohammed was a prophet.

 

[Fino]

Just one little observation about this interesting thread. Muslims believe in God, too, but they are not Christians. They believe that Jesus was a prophet, like their Mohammed was a prophet.

If that's a response to the comments on the conception of God, I would say that what you described is a different conception of God because it doesn't identify Jesus as God. If it's not related to that, then disregard what I'm saying.

 

[Mary Terry]

If that's a response to the comments on the conception of God, I would say that what you described is a different conception of God because it doesn't identify Jesus as God. If it's not related to that, then disregard what I'm saying.

I guess one could say that Muslims' concept of God is different from Christians' concept, but both Muslims and Jews believe that the son of God hasn't come yet. All three religions believe in the same God, but they disagree on whether or not Jesus is the son of God.

 

[SeanF]

I just meant from a biblical perspective 45,000 different denominations could be "the work of the devil" in an interest of dividing them. A modern day tower of Babel

I agree. Dismissing the truth of a claim based on the fact that there are many other claims is not rational.

I agree. Dismissing the truth of a claim based on the fact that there are many other claims is not rational.

I am not being dismissive. One of my degrees is in theology, specializing in NT scholarship. I was merely seeking clarification to join in what I perceived to be an interesting discussion in the most respectful way possible. Odd that I am feeling attacked for doing so, especially since we are likely in agreement about a great many things theologically.

I am not, and would not, dismiss the possibility of God. Not sure how this discussion keeps unraveling into a question about whether or not God exists. I assumed by the original post that we were working with the assumption that there is a God. My comment about the high number of denominations was my way of illustrating that just saying "Christian" does not really clarify as much as one would think. And if we are going to explore a particular characteristic about God for a thought experiment, we needed to first decide what attributes are included, and to what degree they will be employed.

Sorry if I offended anyone by asking a question. That was not my intent.

 

[Fino]

I guess one could say that Muslims' concept of God is different from Christians' concept, but both Muslims and Jews believe that the son of God hasn't come yet. All three religions believe in the same God, but they disagree on whether or not Jesus is the son of God.

I don't think they're the same God. Christianity believes God is a trinity, three-in-one. I see that as radically different.

 

[Fino]

I am not being dismissive. One of my degrees is in theology, specializing in NT scholarship. I was merely seeking clarification to join in what I perceived to be an interesting discussion in the most respectful way possible. Odd that I am feeling attacked for doing so, especially since we are likely in agreement about a great many things theologically.

I am not, and would not, dismiss the possibility of God. Not sure how this discussion keeps unraveling into a question about whether or not God exists. I assumed by the original post that we were working with the assumption that there is a God. My comment about the high number of denominations was my way of illustrating that just saying "Christian" does not really clarify as much as one would think. And if we are going to explore a particular characteristic about God for a thought experiment, we needed to first decide what attributes are included, and to what degree they will be employed.

Sorry if I offended anyone by asking a question. That was not my intent.

I wasn't at all intending to come off as attacking. I thought we were just having an interesting discussion, too. If there was any misunderstanding as to what you were saying, I don't think it resulted in any offense to anyone.

But I agree that just "Christian" only clarifies a small number of points, primarily serving to separate the discussion from other religions, such as the beliefs of Judaism and Muslims.

 

[Magna]

Not sure how this discussion keeps unraveling into a question about whether or not God exists. I assumed by the original post that we were working with the assumption that there is a God.

That is not my assumption. My original post/question that I had, which I don't believe I did a good job really explaining it was that everything in the world can be viewed for what it is, as it is, at face value on its own.

Jimmy got cancer.
Suzie bought a car.
David helped build the car.
The volcano erupted.
Bison roam in Yellowstone.
Johnny studied hard and got an A on an exam.
Whales pee in the ocean.
I can make an omelet from eggs laid by chickens.
Skyscrapers are built by humans as are cities.

^ In none of the above examples does one need to explain that any of them were only possible because of God. Sure, one can certainly believe that all of the examples happened only because of God's will, but the point is, one can also believe in every example above (as well as anything else in life as an example) that "God" was not a factor. In fact, most anything that simply happens is easier to believe that it simply happens than to believe "God" is behind everything. In all of the examples above, they can be explained as they are. There isn't some mystery piece missing that literally prevents all of the above examples from being explained.

So since everything can be viewed without having to view it through the "lens" of being of "God", is "faith" believing in something when it's possible that that something doesn't exist?

 

[Mary Terry]

I don't think they're the same God. Christianity believes God is a trinity, three-in-one. I see that as radically different.

Historically speaking, it is the same God who gave rise to the three religions. It is my understanding that Jews and Muslims are still waiting for the son of God to come to earth at which point the Old Testament promise of the trinity will be complete for them.

 

[jsilver256]

Here's another thought for you @Magna . Forget about God for a second.

What is a greater reflection on the glory of humankind - LLM AIs like ChatGPT / Gemini which produce their own outputs independently of their creators, or someone typing every word behind a screen?

Many would call ChatGPT the greatest invention of humanity to date. Why?

 

[Dagan]

The OP question plays towards some things in life that I have seen over and over...and still happens every single day. One example: There will be a family sitting in an ER waiting for a surgeon to give them news on a loved one who was in a life or death operation. The surgeon finally comes out. If the surgeon has great news, the family will say, "thank god...all praise to god...through god, all things are possible, etc. etc." If the surgeon has the worst news, the family will say, "it's just god's will...it was his time, and he's in god's hands, now...etc. etc." Either case, the family is slapping the surgeon in the face, insulting them to no end. The family is disregarding every single second that surgeon went to school, all of the hard work, focus, learning and memorizing right from wrong, repeated processes, just everything entirely. The family gives no credit or respect at all to the actual, physical person right there in front of them for the results of what has become of their loved one. Nope. Nothing. It was just some god doing mysterious ways and whatnot. Complete disregard for actual work done to instead rely on and only believe their faith was THE deciding factor.

Never once do these such believers think about the resentment and division they are creating in doing this. It's rather "blind" and "faith" working separately and similarly in such cases. And as much as this kind of thing happens every single day, in however many various instances, it's no wonder "to me" how people start forming groups that don't like each other, angers build and then eventually boil over to undesirable results.

MY answer to the original question is that believers of any religion need to keep a healthy REALITY check because if they can't separate their beliefs from what actual people are doing / causing (including themselves), then it's the same thing as saying that no person at all is ever accountable or responsible for anything that ever happens (only some god). That's a dangerous way to go about life, and that's pretty much how the most disturbing cults get formed. They have this penultimate belief that they can do anything possible and that it is "god's" will. This plays into the dangers of certain beliefs of free will and/or predestination, as well. Reality is of dire necessity first and foremost so that craziness and awful things don't occur.

This is all of what goes through my mind any time I ever hear someone tell me that "faith" is a powerful thing. I'm like, "oh...I know...trust me....I know."

 

[Tom]

Is "Faith" in God the concept or activity of believing something even if it doesn't appear to be true or necessary?

I'd say that is a part of a good definition if you make it:

Faith in God (or anything) is the belief in something unseen.

Some examples:

I have faith my wife will pick me up at 11:00. Ok thats a bad example. She's always late. But I do believe she will get there eventually without fail.

I have faith in God because I believe the scriptures as well as what my heart tells me.

It's very similar to Trust.

 

[jsilver256]

The family gives no credit or respect at all to the actual, physical person right there in front of them for the results of what has become of their loved one. Nope. Nothing. It was just some god doing mysterious ways and whatnot. Complete disregard for actual work done to instead rely on and only believe their faith was THE deciding factor.

Why not see it as that the families already trust the surgeon has the skills necessary, and they are stressing/praying about the things outside of the surgeon's control? I mean, I don't think even the surgeon himself has the ability to know whether a surgery succeeds or fails.

 

[WhitewaterWoman]

What if the surgeon believes it is only through the grace of God that he has had the opportunity to learn and develop his surgical skills? The surgeon may feel blessed by God to be able to do the work he does. The surgeon may agree with the exultant or grieving families.

Resentment that the families do not appreciate his accomplishments and work would be furthest from his mind.

If that were the case, perhaps people would get along better with each other.

 

[Fino]

Historically speaking, it is the same God who gave rise to the three religions. It is my understanding that Jews and Muslims are still waiting for the son of God to come to earth at which point the Old Testament promise of the trinity will be complete for them.

Oh okay, I actually don't know enough about their religions to have a meaningful response, but thank you for the information.

 

[NB79]

I think intelligence can only come from intelligence.
Like, has dust floating around the ability or means or anything to end up creating intelligence and consciousness?
A bunch or rocks and dust energy in space can-t end up by themselves as beauty love, math, etc. appreciation of spiritual things...

And you see this in nature, animal construct things according to their intelligence, humans construct things according to their intelligence, an animal can-t end up with a computer, the same, humans can-t understand themselves completely.
Then why give credit to nothing that has no intelligence for everything.

 

[Fino]

I think intelligence can only come from intelligence.
Like, has dust floating around the ability or means or anything to end up creating intelligence and consciousness?
A bunch or rocks and dust energy in space can-t end up by themselves as beauty love, math, etc. appreciation of spiritual things...

And you see this in nature, animal construct things according to their intelligence, humans construct things according to their intelligence, an animal can-t end up with a computer, the same, humans can-t understand themselves completely.
Then why give credit to nothing that has no intelligence for everything.

I agree. I was an atheist for about twenty years and it seemed like the only logical option. I couldn't understand how anyone could think otherwise. Now I've been Christian for about five years, and I feel the same way about belief in God.