Christian concept of "Faith" question

[Magna]

Is "Faith" in God the concept or activity of believing something even if it doesn't appear to be true or necessary?

The basis for my question stems from the recent following thoughts:

Picturing the "world" as it is at present time and at any given current moment; each person with their own life, each country and region of the world operating as they do currently.

Is God necessary for any of the above to actually occur? Or to put it another way: Could everything as it is now (ie as we perceive it being alive) exist and operate as it does without "God"? Do we need God to explain human accomplishments as well as all other activity on the planet? Is life as we know it so surreal, ethereal and otherwise unexplainable that the only way we can try to make sense of it is to believe that God is the arbiter of existence.

Could a person drive their car to the store in a vehicle built by other human beings by a company that was conceived and started by a human being or human beings, etc as they do without being required to attribute the possibility of such to explain its possibility?

 

[Fino]

Everything we believe is based on faith. It's confidence in the truth of something.

If God exists, He is necessary for anything to occur. If He doesn't exist, then He is not necessary to explain anything. Since the existence of God is a question of fact, it's a matter of whether or not it's true, not whether or not the explanation is useful. God should not be used to make up for a lack of knowledge, to explain something currently unexplainable. We should believe God exists if there is a preponderance of evidence in favor of His existence. If we lack sufficient evidence, it would be illogical to believe in Him.

But one should not seek conclusive proof, as there is not even conclusive proof that we objectively exist. There is, however, a great deal of evidence we do exist, and so the belief that we exist is reasonable.

 

[jsilver256]

I'll go down what faith is not from a Biblical point of view.

Faith is not about accepting the existence of a God.

The Scriptures teach that the existence of God is self-evident:

The heavens declare the glory of God, and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

I strongly rejected this when I was an atheist, but I have come since to believe that was foolishness. The reason why is simple - our universe had a definite beginning. Even when I was a hardcore atheist, the only logical explanation I had was that our universe was a chain of multiverses which rolled up to a Singularity, which, presumably, being a singularity, possesses self-awareness and intelligence.

Faith is not about unquestioningly accepting teachings
The Bible teaches us to question authority and certainly emphasizes that churches are very, very subject to corruption and leadership failure:

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. but test everything; hold fast what is good. but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good.

Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Even the Apostle Peter led believers astray at one point:

when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him in public, because he was clearly wrong. Before some men who had been sent by James arrived there, Peter had been eating with the Gentile believers. But after these men arrived, he drew back and would not eat with the Gentiles, because he was afraid of those who were in favor of circumcising them.

And Peter is considered the first Pope in Roman Catholic tradition - what higher earthly authority is there other than him? So, all preachers will be incorrect at some point in time.

So what is faith?
We've all read John 3:16. But you may have overlooked the verses immediately preceding that:

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.

This is the serpent story:

And the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you. Pray to the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and set it on a pole, and everyone who is bitten, when he sees it, shall live.” So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

This is considered by Christians to be a "model" of how salvation works. Just look up and you'll be saved. That's it. No fancy rituals. Just look up at the cross and believe. This is the faith part, IMO.

Per the rest of your post, I think AI is providing a surprisingly good insight into why God "allows" things that you mention - the more you restrict and interfere with AI, the dumber the outputs become. Noam Chomsky believes that maximum intelligence is achieved only under the least constraints. You cannot have AI without allowing AI to say something you don't agree with. Perhaps that extends to NI (Natural Intelligence) as well.

 

[Magna]

I thought of another way to put what I'm trying to ask:

Does everything happen, as it happens in the way it happens happen solely because God wills all of it to exist and conversely, if God stopped willing everything to exist, it would instantly cease to exist? Faith is believing just that, correct?

I ask because another possible answer that can't be denied is that everything that happens as it does can be explained to happen without God willing it to happen. A person can save to buy a car, they can work at a job, they can buy certain grocery items of their choosing, they could get sick, they could die, cities could be built, airplanes flown, water boiled, etc all explained without attributing it to the will of God or even God's involvement at all.

 

[Fino]

Sounds like a question about free will. I believe everything happens according to the will of God. I've never met a Christian in person who has agreed but many online do, as well as the Bible, where my belief originates. I'd define this as faith, yes.

 

[SeanF]

I enjoyed reading the different responses. I love this sort of topic, and love listening to people's varying point of views.

I think that any useful discussion on a topic needs to first establish basic definitions. I mean, it does no good trying to identify triangles unless we first agree upon a definition that explains what parameters constitute a shape being a triangle. I used this example from Meditations, since the previous poster mentioned the belief in one's own existence.

Likewise, it becomes difficult to properly answer a question about "God" when there are so many possible definitions that we could use. Even if we assume the poster means a monotheistic God, since the word "God" is capitalized, are we also assuming an "all-powerful" being? What about omnibenevolent? Even if we assume that this God is omnipotent, could we be discussing a deistic version of God that starts existence only to indifferently watch it go whatever direction it wants after that?

Sorry, I am not trying to be obtuse. It just becomes a challenge to even address the question unless we have some basic parameters.

Still, fun topic.

 

[jsilver256]

The Scriptures teach us that God lives outside of time. I don't think there is any way for us to cognitively grasp what the meaning of "free will" is for an entity that simultaneously exists in the past and future.

But from our frame of reference, the Scriptures are quite clear that we possess agency.

 

[Magna]

I enjoyed reading the different responses. I love this sort of topic, and love listening to people's varying point of views.

I think that any useful discussion on a topic needs to first establish basic definitions. I mean, it does no good trying to identify triangles unless we first agree upon a definition that explains what parameters constitute a shape being a triangle. I used this example from Meditations, since the previous poster mentioned the belief in one's own existence.

Likewise, it becomes difficult to properly answer a question about "God" when there are so many possible definitions that we could use. Even if we assume the poster means a monotheistic God, since the word "God" is capitalized, are we also assuming an "all-powerful" being? What about omnibenevolent? Even if we assume that this God is omnipotent, could we be discussing a deistic version of God that starts existence only to indifferently watch it go whatever direction it wants after that?

Sorry, I am not trying to be obtuse. It just becomes a challenge to even address the question unless we have some basic parameters.

Still, fun topic.

Correct. Per the title, a Christian concept of God. Triune God.

 

[Dagan]

Yeah, I think there's a split between what faith really means to people. There's "faith" because of what you have to back it up. Then there's the more modern thinking of "blind faith" from just basically being told whatever text, psalms, parables, to just trust the lord, etc. etc.

Either way, most folks actually believe everything that they do based on evidence and facts. Reality proves that people will always seek evidence and proof that fits their five senses before the "sixth sense" of belief rather kicks in and leads their way. Certainly my confidence in anything at all specifically stems from research, stats, testing and/or conclusive evidence - seeing the reality of the world we live in, day in and day out (or even a historical record) per what's what. Personal experiences can definitely come into play, but those can and should be tested over again to ensure they weren't anomalies or one off strokes of luck. I've mentioned before about all of the supposed miracles or amazing instances in texts and preached about that are always attributed to religious figures and deities - that those things should have never been necessary, though, if some "blind faith" was truly ever enough to go on. Blind faith is what a lot of clergy have seemingly been trying to turn it all into, though. It shouldn't be what they're preaching at all. It's not cool.

You bring up the analogy of cars, and I've used that one before, as well because it's about perfect: You can do your research, follow records and stats and read reviews after reviews - solid, factual data and evidence with emotional opinions atop it all...and then purchase a car based on all of that. You will have a trust...a trusting kind of faith in yourself...that you are making the right choice...doing the right thing. OR You can just go in blind to any car dealership and ask the slick talking "supposed" well-informed and hopefully honest individuals working there about which car is right for you...they'll tell you what they think...you'll ask them if they're absolutely sure...and they'll look at you, smile, maybe even wink and definitely tell you, "hey...trust me." And if you do just take their word for it, there you go...that's having blind faith, in a nutshell. It's exactly that. Now, it could work out great or not at all in either case, but that's just reality - life is random, instances of luck, instances of hardships and obstacles, it just happens. For the most part, though, you should get what you deserve per whichever path you choose, as it will be because you absolutely did the work to earn a good car purchase and experience....or because you did absolutely no work at all to ensure that you weren't schemed and conned and will have a crap car and a horrible experience with it ongoing.

 

[Fino]

The Scriptures teach us that God lives outside of time. I don't think there is any way for us to cognitively grasp what the meaning of "free will" is for an entity that simultaneously exists in the past and future.

But from our frame of reference, the Scriptures are quite clear that we possess agency.

Can you please quote the verses that make this clear? I'm very interested in the subject of free will. If you simply mean that we are to take responsibility for our actions, I don't see that as proof of free will.

 

[SeanF]

Correct. Per the title, a Christian concept of God. Triune God.

If only that meant we no longer needed to further define the terms...

Despite the somewhat snarky response stating that you posted the question referring to a "Christian concept of God," I am sorry to say that the term "Christian concept of God" does not mean the same thing to all Christians, let alone everyone else from other faiths. There are over 45,000 accepted "Christian denominations. That does not even begin to include rather large offshoots of religious beliefs that have their roots in Christianity but are widely viewed as a cult. These denominations vary greatly in how they view the sovereignty of God. Just Google the terms "free will vs. predestination" to see what I am talking about.

 

[jsilver256]

Can you please quote the verses that make this clear? I'm very interested in the subject of free will. If you simply mean that we are to take responsibility for our actions, I don't see that as proof of free will.

I didn't claim we have free will, I claimed we have agency (at least from our frame of reference). It's not that I believe or don't believe in free will, I don't think free will has a meaningful definition because I do not think we possess the facilities to comprehend how intellect works beyond this universe's arrow of time.

Reference for God living outside time:

For thus says the One who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity

But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day

It is also implied, e.g., Jesus receiving the wrath of God on the behalf of all humanity while on the cross, which in a conventional time sense is clearly not "long enough."

 

[Magna]

If only that meant we no longer needed to further define the terms...

Despite the somewhat snarky response stating that you posted the question referring to a "Christian concept of God," I am sorry to say that the term "Christian concept of God" does not mean the same thing to all Christians, let alone everyone else from other faiths. There are over 45,000 accepted "Christian denominations. That does not even begin to include rather large offshoots of religious beliefs that have their roots in Christianity but are widely viewed as a cult. These denominations vary greatly in how they view the sovereignty of God. Just Google the terms "free will vs. predestination" to see what I am talking about.

Divide and conquer?

 

[jsilver256]

If only that meant we no longer needed to further define the terms...

Despite the somewhat snarky response stating that you posted the question referring to a "Christian concept of God," I am sorry to say that the term "Christian concept of God" does not mean the same thing to all Christians, let alone everyone else from other faiths. There are over 45,000 accepted "Christian denominations. That does not even begin to include rather large offshoots of religious beliefs that have their roots in Christianity but are widely viewed as a cult. These denominations vary greatly in how they view the sovereignty of God. Just Google the terms "free will vs. predestination" to see what I am talking about.

45,000 denominations is almost by design! The belief that Jesus is Lord is what unifies them.

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

 

[Au Naturel]

there is not even conclusive proof that we objectively exist

You are wrong about that. Your existence is the only thing you know to be objectively true. If you never get past that point, you land in the realm of solipsism. It fails not because it isn't possible but because it isn't useful. It is an intellectual dead end beyond which there is no path.

You cannot know that God (use any definition here) exists or does not exist. Both are articles of faith.

If you use instead, experimental evidence and mathematics without a priori faith in God or not-God, you enter the realm of doubt and probability. The assumption that we can know and predict the world - since solipsism is not useful - is the basis for science. That is the realm of agnosticism.

There's also a body of thought that doesn't care if God exists. God is irrelevent.

Some minds are more amenable to certainty and faith and some are more amenable to probability and science. I think I was born without a faith gene. I would have been a Doubting Thomas.

 

[SeanF]

45,000 denominations is almost by design! The belief that Jesus is Lord is what unifies them.

Not sure you understand me.

My comment about 45,000 denominations is neither meant to prove or disprove the concept or reality of God. I merely seek to understand the terms being used before venturing a response. I Calvinist, for example, will provide a vastly different answer than a Free Will Baptist, both of which I consider "Christian." In order to properly answer a question that seemed to ponder the extent of personal autonomy from God, I would need to know exactly what type of God, even within the Christian faith, that we are discussing.

 

[SeanF]

Divide and conquer?

I am sorry, but I have no idea what that means. Are you referring to God dividing and conquering?

 

[Fino]

You are wrong about that. Your existence is the only thing you know to be objectively true. If you never get past that point, you land in the realm of solipsism. It fails not because it isn't possible but because it isn't useful. It is an intellectual dead end beyond which there is no path.

You cannot know that God (use any definition here) exists or does not exist. Both are articles of faith.

If you use instead, experimental evidence and mathematics without a priori faith in God or not-God, you enter the realm of doubt and probability. The assumption that we can know and predict the world - since solipsism is not useful - is the basis for science. That is the realm of agnosticism.

There's also a body of thought that doesn't care if God exists. God is irrelevent.

Some minds are more amenable to certainty and faith and some are more amenable to probability and science. I think I was born without a faith gene. I would have been a Doubting Thomas.

But Thomas believed and declared Jesus to be God.

 

[Fino]

Not sure you understand me.

My comment about 45,000 denominations is neither meant to prove or disprove the concept or reality of God. I merely seek to understand the terms being used before venturing a response. I Calvinist, for example, will provide a vastly different answer than a Free Will Baptist, both of which I consider "Christian." In order to properly answer a question that seemed to ponder the extent of personal autonomy from God, I would need to know exactly what type of God, even within the Christian faith, that we are discussing.

Denominations differ on extraneous theological points but not on their conception of God, else they wouldn't all be considered Christian, which is defined as the belief that Jesus is God. I believe that's what he was trying to convey.

 

[Au Naturel]

But Thomas believed and declared Jesus to be God.

In the story, he had evidence of seeing the crucifixion and the burial. All I have is a 3rd hand account written years after and then rewritten and revised many times. Like I said, I have a very weak faith gene, if any.