Tony Attwood

[Magna]

Maybe that should be the new catch phrase "Articulating Autism", rather than "Autism Awareness"

^ The best statement I've read in a long time. I think this is great.

 

[Magna]

I've managed to create a couple more for the ASD clan!!!!

I have an autistic friend that I haven't talked to in awhile but before she and her husband had their first child she had the expected worries of a first time soon to be mother (e.g. pregnancy, childbirth), but she also had a worry that her child might end up being....NT.

Our other autistic friends and I totally understood that and only in the way that autistics could understand that.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

Both my sons are NT, did my bit for Canadian demographics.

 

[tazz]

Here is my friend interviewing Tony Attwood.

I'm shocked at how much he doesn't understand, including meltdowns.

I notice no one's commenting on Attwood's clear lack of understanding about autistic meltdowns. Seems to me that my friend should be the millionaire expert with the PhD and not him.

I have to say there was nothing about that video that made me think he doesn't understand meltdowns. Quite the opposite.

I've used this interview technique myself, where I am on a panel, in front of an audience of students, talking to an expert. I will ask questions for my colleague to answer, even though I already know the answers. The point is to make it easy for the audience to follow. Like I'm asking questions on behalf of the audience and sometimes even feigning surprise in order to highlight a point that is important or that I think might be easy to overlook. That conversational style is very effective, perhaps more so than one person standing up and presenting the material.

That's the impression I got from that video. Mr Atwood seems to know his stuff but was simply feeding questions to your friend, to facilitate the discussion not because he didn't know the answers already. He seemed very comfortable with the material as if nothing was really unexpected in her answers because he already knows the subject well.

Incidentally, your friend was extremely articulate and explained some particular types of meltdown and triggers more clearly than I've heard before. It's the first time I've ever heard someone describe a particular trigger that I have like that - with regard to conversations and particular types of conversation, and that the "explosion in my brain" is physically painful.

"...they tend to be particularly associated with language, with conversation. And it has to do with the type of conversation. If I'm talking to somebody and ... what they're saying is completely illogical and senseless... my brain cannot compute that and it will cause me to have a sensation in my brain that is physically painful..."

Also I liked what she was saying about the distinction between tantrum and meltdown, and particularly that no-one is having a meltdown by choice. She explained that very clearly.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

^^This^^ Well said. I completely agree.

"Reggie" was explaining meltdowns, from her perspective. Now, from her pre-interview discussion, she admittedly describes her susceptibility to trauma, burnout, and frequently not feeling well. She appears psychologically "brittle", and this is unfortunate, even sad. This is her autism experience. Her triggers for meltdowns and how they occur under what circumstances and the frequency of them, in my opinion, is an "outlier". These are not triggers for myself, nor many others here, but perhaps a few. I also work at one of the largest children's hospitals in the US, and we interact with autistic children daily, so I do have some degree of comparison to suggest this. Now, what she suggests in terms of how to handle meltdowns personally, as well as, advice for others interacting with someone having an autistic meltdown, in my opinion, was more useful or valuable information.

So, to claim that someone with 40+ years of autism experience, interacting with autistic individuals every day, "doesn't know autism" seems highly unlikely. He was simply allowing Reggie to lead the interview and explain her perspective, and then, occasionally ask some leading questions.

To say this in another way, her autism experience is not my autism experience, nor anyone else's. It is unique to her. Her experience should not be shallowly interpreted as "this is how autism presents".

 

[Jonn]

Wow got a good discussion started, only started this thread as I'm keeping an eye on my granddaughter for signs of autism. Tony seemed to have some insights.

We aimz to plz.

Yep, I don't blindly dismiss what Tony says.
I probably should check up on his position these days, however.

 

[Jonn]

That's the impression I got from that video. Mr Atwood seems to know his stuff but was simply feeding questions to your friend, to facilitate the discussion not because he didn't know the answers already. He seemed very comfortable with the material as if nothing was really unexpected in her answers because he already knows the subject well.

I will have to watch the video.
I need to catch up with Tony.
It has been a while.

 

[Jonn]

^^This^^ Well said. I completely agree.

I agree with your agreement.

 

[Ella Spell]

What did Tony say about meltdowns that showed he was an expert?

I didn't catch that part. He suggested speaking to people in meltdown state. He didn't seem to know that we'd want an absence of stimuli. He didn't seem to know the difference of meltdowns and tantrums, or the fact meltdowns don't involve emotion.

I respect his research but as far as I could tell, he had nothing to add to the topic and didn't sound any more knowledgable than a lay person.

 

[Ella Spell]

If a psychiatrist knows about ASD that's great, but where I live they aren't authorised to diagnose it. I've seen a few psychiatrists since my ASD diagnosis (Level 2) and they were totally useless in terms of support. The only reason I went to them was because I had a big stroke, and psychiatry is required as part of the stroke rehab program because many stroke patients develop depression. My psychiatrists didn't know anything about ASD other than the stereotypes, but quite frankly they were useless with my stroke care and my pre-existing mental health conditions too. I felt gaslit no matter what I said. I was never so glad as when I finished my required hours and got out of there.

My previous psychiatrist was arrested and lost his licence for sleeping with patients. It's all on public record so I've read the gory details of everything he said and did.

I don't have much faith in psychiatry but that's nothing to do with my answer pertaining to ASD. The bottom line is that they aren't allowed to diagnose or provide front-line care for ASD patients here, so it's just as well that we all get help from psychologists. Psychiatry has a 3-4 year wait list, also.

 

[Ella Spell]

Both my sons are NT, did my bit for Canadian demographics.

I added a couple of autistic geniuses to the planet.

 

[Ella Spell]

Does Tony still talk about autistic women having "male brains", or has he graduated to saying autistic men have "female brains" ?

I didn't know brains had genitals but I guess he's done special exams.

 

[Boogs]

Does Tony still talk about autistic women having "male brains", or has he graduated to saying autistic men have "female brains" ?

I didn't know brains had genitals but I guess he's done special exams.

I don't know what you're quoting from so can't comment on that (do you have a link?), but could it be he's trying to work on dispelling the old and incorrect idea that men and women has significantly different brains. The modern take on this is more and more that differences between adult genders are much more taken from nuture, not nature.
Just from the sound of what you said:

Does Tony still talk about autistic women having "male brains"

Could it be that's he's working against this old and false notion, still surprisingly held in many area's of academia and medicine? But I'd be interested to see what it is you mean, rather than having to guess, if you can point to some material please?

I didn't know brains had genitals

I presume that was tongue in cheek and not literal, about something he's said?

 

[Neonatal RRT]

What did Tony say about meltdowns that showed he was an expert?

I didn't catch that part. He suggested speaking to people in meltdown state. He didn't seem to know that we'd want an absence of stimuli. He didn't seem to know the difference of meltdowns and tantrums, or the fact meltdowns don't involve emotion.

I respect his research but as far as I could tell, he had nothing to add to the topic and didn't sound any more knowledgable than a lay person.

Ella,
Reggie was speaking from her perspective. Dr. Attwood was primarily listening. However, your example, "He didn't seem to know that we'd want an absence of stimuli." is NOT a universal experience. I think it may be a partial truth. Clearly it's not what you do, but how you do it, sort of thing, but a soft, soothing, supportive voice can certainly help some individuals feel safe and allow the meltdown subside. Keep in mind, Reggie is one of perhaps, thousands of autistic individuals Dr. Attwood has interviewed, so when he says things like that, it's based upon the experience that other autistics have shared with him.
"...or the fact that meltdowns don't involve emotion." My meltdowns are always triggered by emotion. Once again, you're making a leap.
"...and didn't sound any more knowledgable than a lay person." Reggie led the discussion, not the other way around. Dr. Attwood was pretty much there to support her while she discussed her experience. It was not his role in this situation to lend a lot of advice or lecture her on her condition, but rather to listen. Now, had he been standing up lecturing in front of a group of colleagues you would have seen an entirely different side of him.
Be careful of cognitive biases. Even if you have studied a topic, they are mostly shaped by your unique life experience with it. It's your specific perspective and context, not others.

 

[Jonn]

I don't know what you're quoting from so can't comment on that (do you have a link?), but could it be he's trying to work on dispelling the old and incorrect idea that men and women has significantly different brains. The modern take on this is more and more that differences between adult genders are much more taken from nuture, not nature.
Just from the sound of what you said:

I am not sure it was Tony, but I remember researchers, professionals, whatever you want to call them, thinking in terms of autistic women GENERALLY being more rational rather than emotional.
Yes, we are all on a spectrum.
Could we plz not go there?

Personally, I DO think men and women are affected differently due to the evolutionary process.
Different hormones could influence different mindsets, as an example.

E.G., men tend to be more visually influenced when it comes to arousal, whereas women tend to want/need more emotional involvement.
As they say: "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus."

Why is it said that men are from Mars and women are from Venus?

The book states that most common relationship problems between men and women are a result of fundamental psychological differences between the sexes, which the author exemplifies by means of its eponymous metaphor: that men and women are from distinct planets—men from Mars and women from Venus—and that each sex is ...

 

[Jonn]

Could it be that's he's working against this old and false notion, still surprisingly held in many area's of academia and medicine? But I'd be interested to see what it is you mean, rather than having to guess, if you can point to some material please?

I don't think there is a definitive answer to this.
However, there are distinctive/different tendencies in men and women in general.
I am not specifically talking about the ND community, which is simply a small subset of humanity.

Context is important here.
And it is a complex subject to consider, after all.

 

[Boogs]

I don't think there is a definitive answer to this.
However, there are distinctive/different tendencies in men and women in general.
I am not specifically talking about the ND community, which is simply a small subset of humanity.

Context is important here.
And it is a complex subject to consider, after all.

I was being extremely literal. I think you may have gone somewhat further than my questions.
I just found the comments to be difficult to rationalise and make a proper meaning, were some exaggerations to give a better impression of the thoughts on the matter? Or were they intended as very literal comments? If they were, they missed a lot of context, that without which, the comments could be taken in a number of ways, some of which I would definitely disagree with, without more evidence.

The male/female brain issue (in general, not ASD specific) is an old and frankly, crap position, taken by meny a medic and researcher, simply because that's the prevailing yet unexamined opinion (and in a misogynistic society, this would be hardly surprising), but more and more, this is being challenged by more forward and modern thinging scientists. They have many obstacles to overcome with this sort of prejudice, and often messaging has to be subtle and carefully planned, to avoid a baclash that could put science back years in this area.

There's much politics (small p, and large P) involved, and power to make and break peoples careers, and much more. It's not all logic and rationality in some areas! Anyway, I was just very curious as to where this came from with respect to Atwood, as the (admittedly small) amounts of material I've seen, did not give me that impression.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

I don't know what you're quoting from so can't comment on that (do you have a link?), but could it be he's trying to work on dispelling the old and incorrect idea that men and women has significantly different brains. The modern take on this is more and more that differences between adult genders are much more taken from nuture, not nature.
Just from the sound of what you said:

Could it be that's he's working against this old and false notion, still surprisingly held in many area's of academia and medicine? But I'd be interested to see what it is you mean, rather than having to guess, if you can point to some material please?


I presume that was tongue in cheek and not literal, about something he's said?

Another interesting topic: Gender differences in ASD. There are differences, but perhaps not in the way that some may think.

The extreme male brain revisited: gender coherence in adults with autism spectrum disorder | The British Journal of Psychiatry | Cambridge Core

The extreme male brain revisited: gender coherence in adults with autism spectrum disorder - Volume 201 Issue 2

www.cambridge.org

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2213158221002552

Genetic evidence of gender difference in autism spectrum disorder supports the female-protective effect - Translational Psychiatry

Autism spectrum disorder (ASD) is a complex neurodevelopmental disorder with a male-to-female prevalence of 4:1. However, the genetic mechanisms underlying this gender difference remain unclear. Mutation burden analysis, a TADA model, and co-expression and functional network analyses were...

www.nature.com

The effect of gender on the neuroanatomy of children with autism spectrum disorders: a support vector machine case-control study - Molecular Autism

Background Genetic, hormonal, and environmental factors contribute since infancy to sexual dimorphism in regional brain structures of subjects with typical development. However, the neuroanatomical differences between male and female children with autism spectrum disorders (ASD) are an...

link.springer.com

 

[Jonn]

Well, I watched the video just now.
Here is my assessment:

Tony was doing a lot of paraphrasing, which is taught in communication classes.
He was supportive.
He was validating what was being said.
Reggi was very appreciative.
I had no problem with the interview.

 

[Jonn]

The male/female brain issue (in general, not ASD specific) is an old and frankly, crap position, taken by meny a medic and researcher, simply because that's the prevailing yet unexamined opinion (and in a misogynistic society,

You could be right, but without a definitive consensus, it is simply an opinion, as is mine.

but more and more, this is being challenged by more forward and modern thinging scientists.

I think that is a subjective position to take.
Who determines who is more forward-thinking and modern?

I am not disagreeing with you.
I am simply making the point that what we are saying are opinions, not facts.

There's much politics (small p, and large P) involved, and power to make and break peoples careers, and much more. It's not all logic and rationality in some areas!

I agree, and topics like the ones we are talking about here are often politicised.
Hence, the need to maintain a sceptical mindset, imo.