Sylvia Plath's roman-à-clef 'The Bell Jar' (1963)

[DuckRabbit]

I have put that Toby Young book on my list, thanks!



Everyone has need of juggling the flood of information, but I also think it is also a lot of people not trusting their own taste, and that constant need to flow with the crowd. I am at the point where I stand in line at the grocery store and know the faces on the front of the National Enquirer, but not US and People and so forth. I am that much out of the gossip/celebrity loop.

Fortunately, there isn't one system any more. I'm no longer plugging in to the mainstream. I am one of many others who hang around Goodreads to find new writers, instead of the latest literary sparkler. I have online friends with similar tastes who keep up with shared interests, and I have online movies and rarer, TV shows, that are brought to me on the Internet if I am patient. This works for me, because I have no desire to be trendy or seem to be more hip than I am.

I wrote a book about cats and couldn't get anyone to even ask to read it: because I am not a celebrity. The alternate path was previously to schmooze my way into making personal contacts (funnily enough, this is how Yeats made a name for himself) but that's no longer necessary. I started a blog, it became popular, and now when I bring out the book, myself, I will have an audience.

We are at the thin edge of the wedge that is going to splinter that former cement wall. There's going to be too many good things for people to enjoy. They will not put up with letting some edifice somewhere decide what they will like.

Which is great.

I think that's how conventions get overturned all the time in society and culture: a rejected group breaks away and forms their own independent group. Esoteric doctrine has it that it takes a society some 80 years to accept a new idea - just long enough for its initiator to live and die and never see his/her idea or creation accepted! An example is the impressionist painters who broke every rule of the French Academy of Fine Arts. The Academy assumed that the purpose of art was to teach moral lessons through historic, mythological, and Biblical themes whereas the impressionists were interested in painting their immediate environment, and modern urban and country life. In April 1874 they defied the official Paris Salon by setting up their own independent exhibition. In 1910 art critic Roger Fry brought an impressionist exhibition to England. They were still vilified and ostracised by the establishment. I think the problem is that many of the gatekeepers are NT. You do something different from the establishment at your peril, but eventually the new becomes the new convention. As you say, at least there are more options today - what with the internet and self-publishing.

Wonderful that you wrote a book on cats - I think I saw a post on that elsewhere on this forum. I am a cat-lover with 2 rescue cats - the new one not accepting the old one - and would love to read your blog. Would that be possible or is that private?

 

[WereBear]

It is wayofcats.com/blog. Thanks!

 

[WereBear]

That is fascinating about the 80 years, and so true. Isaac Asimov always said that science advances as all scientists die off; and not before.

But that is most true in a top down situation, when those in authority has some face to lose if they admit they were wrong.

Except that isn't science.

They are supposed to change their minds when new information comes in, when an experiment challenges previous conclusions, when things don't work in the real world the way their theories do.

 

[DuckRabbit]

It is wayofcats.com/blog. Thanks!

Thanks - I enjoyed looking at your cat blog --- a rich, in-depth ethnographic study of cats! Great pictures and captions too. I especially like the poignant pictures of the two cats in cages, reaching down/up to touch each other

 

[DuckRabbit]

That is fascinating about the 80 years, and so true. Isaac Asimov always said that science advances as all scientists die off; and not before.

But that is most true in a top down situation, when those in authority has some face to lose if they admit they were wrong.

Except that isn't science.

They are supposed to change their minds when new information comes in, when an experiment challenges previous conclusions, when things don't work in the real world the way their theories do.

Yes, a great one for 'dropping the scientific ball' was Freud who started out with scientific intentions but got all dogmatic about his theory of sexuality being at the centre of all human psychology. He became more invested in his own achievement, legacy and immortality than in ongoing learning and development. “The moment a discipline collapses into a single set of beliefs, constructs, or even methods, it’s no longer science, it’s religion.” ~ Dean Radin (2006).

 

[WereBear]

Thanks - I enjoyed looking at your cat blog --- a rich, in-depth ethnographic study of cats! Great pictures and captions too. I especially like the poignant pictures of the two cats in cages, reaching down/up to touch each other

Thanks! It's a labor of love, but I'm trying to turn it into a self-supporting (and me-supporting) venture.

 

[WereBear]

Yes, a great one for 'dropping the scientific ball' was Freud who started out with scientific intentions but got all dogmatic about his theory of sexuality being at the centre of all human psychology. He became more invested in his own achievement, legacy and immortality than in ongoing learning and development. “The moment a discipline collapses into a single set of beliefs, constructs, or even methods, it’s no longer science, it’s religion.” ~ Dean Radin (2006).

Very true.

Did you know Freud also invented topical anesthetic? He really was a pioneer! But the split with Jung showed how much he was invested in his own fame and power, instead of actual science.

Freud wanted his own dogma. Which is why I prefer Jung.

 

[tree]

WereBear
Freud used cocaine as a topical anesthetic.
I wouldn't say he invented it, but he did
promote it.

https://www.wired.com/2010/09/0915cocaine-local-anesthetic/

 

[DuckRabbit]

Very true.

Did you know Freud also invented topical anesthetic? He really was a pioneer! But the split with Jung showed how much he was invested in his own fame and power, instead of actual science.

Freud wanted his own dogma. Which is why I prefer Jung.

I prefer Jung too. I think he was broader in his perspective. Amazing that his insights aren't taught in psychology departments - they are more likely to be taught in English departments

 

[DuckRabbit]

Thanks! It's a labor of love, but I'm trying to turn it into a self-supporting (and me-supporting) venture.

I wish you every success. The world needs more people who are sensitive to animals and can teach others about them.

 

[DuckRabbit]

To continue this theme about the negative correlation that can exist between the quality of writing and ability to publish:

"One of Lacan’s former pupils described the Lacanian school as ‘one of the last bastions of arrogance’. Lacan’s prose style does nothing to dispel the impression of intellectual arrogance. His writings, to put it mildly, are convoluted. If his project was a ‘return to Freud’, it certainly was not to be achieved by his means of expression. Whereas Freud set himself the moral duty of persuading the reader through clear argument and telling example, Lacan is too haughty to explain what he means. His patients are insufficiently important to be introduced as characters in his books. So page after page, the lowly reader is tacitly bullied. Occasionally, Lacan openly announced that his thoughts were above the understanding of his readers. But difficulty is not to be confused with depth."
~ ‘Freudian Repression: Conversation Creating the Unconscious’, by Michael Billig (1999), Cambridge University Press, p. 7.
EDIT: See The shrink from hell

Does anyone know of any other examples? Either good writing being rejected by publishers OR poor writing going from pen to printing press virtually unedited?

 

[WereBear]

Does anyone know of any other examples? Either good writing being rejected by publishers OR poor writing going from pen to printing press virtually unedited?

I have spent several weeks wrestling my non-fiction book into shape, and I was doing what is now the common path of turning a popular set of blog posts into a book. But I didn’t want to do it in the way I have seen too many try: just throwing blog posts into the word processor until you hit the right word count.

Those are examples of maybe okay prose, but it’s not a book. Any more than a collection of short stories, some of whom have repeated characters, is a novel.

Another example of someone celebrated who is ridiculously untalented is David Brooks, who wrote Bobos in Paradise. It was in my college bookstore and I tried to read it, but one third through I realized he was already repeating his already not very deep ideas.

 

[DuckRabbit]

I have spent several weeks wrestling my non-fiction book into shape, and I was doing what is now the common path of turning a popular set of blog posts into a book. But I didn’t want to do it in the way I have seen too many try: just throwing blog posts into the word processor until you hit the right word count.

Those are examples of maybe okay prose, but it’s not a book. Any more than a collection of short stories, some of whom have repeated characters, is a novel.

Another example of someone celebrated who is ridiculously untalented is David Brooks, who wrote Bobos in Paradise. It was in my college bookstore and I tried to read it, but one third through I realized he was already repeating his already not very deep ideas.

Interesting. What you say about popular blog posts being converted into a book reminds me of Asperger 'Samantha Craft' (pen-name) who wrote a blog 'Everyday Aspergers' which included personal photos and accounts of her family life in the US. It became so popular she was given a book deal. She blogged about how disconcerting it was 'falsifying' (as the Asperger brain sees it!) what was essentially her online diary so that it made a readable book. I almost think it takes a NT brain to deviate from the 'truth' like that and restructure and rearrange the information for book form - lopping and hacking and adding. At least for an Asperger to do it, they'd have to say to themselves 'How would a NT approach this?' - to get the right pace and level of clarity. Or how do you see it? Would be interesting to know your process.

Synchronously I came across two articles on writing yesterday - 'straight to the comments'!

The Girl On The Train author Paula Hawkins is raking in £40,000 A DAY from book and film royalties - after borrowing money from her father to write the bestseller
Paula Hawkins, 45, is the seventh highest-paid author on the Forbes Rich List
Her 2015 novel The Girl on The Train became a New York Times bestseller
She made £40,000 a day in the last 12 months from book and film royalties
The novel was adapted into a movie in 2016 that starred Emily Blunt
By Molly Rose Pike For Mailonline
PUBLISHED: 16:39, 3 June 2018 | UPDATED: 19:02, 3 June 2018
Read more: The Girl on the Train author Paula Hawkins is raking in £40,000 a DAY | Daily Mail Online

JuliajuliasUSA, Wilmington, United States
This book was not the work of a genius or even a great writer but I will say I missed hours of sleep to finish it in 2 days. I really really enjoyed the story.

Ilovetosew, Scotland, United Kingdom
Good for her but I couldn't finish it. Got fed up with it half way through.

Incredibly Toned Abs, Chicago, United States
to each his own but I found it to be too meandering and I just quit at about 2/3 of the way through.

bob_001, Leeds, United Kingdom
Thanks to Northern Rail it is now "The Girl on the Rail Replacement Bus".

DaveOn, London, Germany
Sounds very much like Agatha Christie's 4.50 from Paddington

Your mum , Shed Upper , United Kingdom, about an hour ago
The book was alright and the film was poor. But good luck to her

Maya, Langbortistan, Faroe Islands
I've read hundreds of books in my life, and I hardly ever give up on a book, but I did with this one. Her alcohol soaked brain and lousy memory was infuriating, because it lasted hundreds of pages. Yes we get it, you're a drunk, get to the bloody point. I watched the film to get the plot twist.

Pinemartin, Angus, United Kingdom
Dont bother with her second book then ! Its awful!

randomchap, london, United Kingdom
I have written a novel. Never sought an agent or publication. The literary professor I asked to read a few chapters said it was immensely powerful and deeply immersive - which was probably the greatest compliment possible I reckon. After reading this I might pursue getting it published and, if anything, at least have excuse for my depression and drunkeness.

Cathy100, London, United Kingdom
Why not just self-publish rather than wait around after a publisher? Self-published authors are making good money. Some even into the millions (eg. Amanda Hocking)

Mel, Los Angeles, United States
Post a chapter or two on the reddit writing boards. There are amazing stores on the boards and most of the people there are supportive and give honest thoughts on your work. One of the prompts years ago was about if all men on earth vanished over night and someone said they were working on something like it and posted the outline and it was one of the most fascinating things I've ever read. It stuck with me for years.

Toronto-Industry-Bish, Toronto Hamilton, Canada
Why on Earth would you not try to get it published? Get on it!

Mazeppa, Douglas, Isle Of Man
Watched the film. A hundred minutes of deeply unpleasant, dysfunctional people doing horrible things to each other. It was rubbish on any level.

Wisewoman, London and Brazil, United Kingdom
Congratulations to her agent and the marketing team. Pot luck...

Scottish London Girl, Glasgow, United Kingdom
Did the author get inspiration from the film, 'Rear Window' with James Stewart & Grace Kelly?

NonGrata, Indianapolis, United States
That was my first thought!

cristinaecaterina, Los Angeles, United States
Maybe, but she was also influenced by GONE GIRL i.e. unreliable female narrator, etc.

= Such a variety of opinions about it. I'd be very wary of the second book of a 'first time bestseller'. The publishers always try to cash in on the 'publishing phenomenon' by getting the author to write a second book which the reading public will run out like lemmings to buy, but the difference is the first book was inspired - written usually without a publishing contract or agent in the bag - whereas the second one is all forced and self-conscious ('I'm a bestselling author; whatever is say is bound to be good'). This happened to the second book of JK Rowling (A Causal Vacancy - or as someone dubbed it 'A Vacant Casuality); Lauren Weisberger (The Devil Wears Prada) and Elizabeth Gilbert (Eat Love Pray). Can anyone add to this list? (first time bestseller; second book a flop). There's a youtube of Elizabeth Gilbert speaking of this philosophically. She says that all authors can do is sit down at their desk and do their best; whether inspiration comes or lightning strikes is out of your hands.

 

[DuckRabbit]

Here's the second article I came across yesterday:

How to write your own happy ending: The unputdownable guide to getting a publisher and making money from your book
Self-help books on writing can provide support
Agents typically want a brief synopsis, along with the book’s first three chapters
While some writers become millionaires, most keep up their day jobs
By Toby Walne, Financial Mail on Sunday
PUBLISHED: 23:01, 2 June 2018 | UPDATED: 10:12, 3 June 2018
Read more: The unputdownable guide to getting a publisher and making money from your book | This is Money

Barry, Tonbridge
How to make money from writing. Write a book telling people how to make money out of writing a book. Simple.
= GREAT OBSERVATION!

Alexandra Sands, London, United Kingdom
When I wrote my book I just sat down one evening and wrote it. I did not plan it. It just all came out. I got a contract sent to me from a company but I found out that they were Vanity publishers and I did not like the terms of the contract. Eventually I published it myself on Amazon. But I found out that if you do not have advertising for it, it does not sell. A good friend of mine said I should have gone to a writing class but I have always written. It does not matter to me. I could do a rewrite but not sure if I want to. I called the book: Care in the Community by Jessica Sands. I changed the name for legal reasons. It is about how we treat each other. and it is also about mad people. Well known ones.

keepcalmandcriticise, Kent, United Kingdom
What's your point?

Thebrightestspark, IntheUniverse, United Kingdom
You can spend your life trying to get published via an Agent. Wasted nearly ten years. Instead went the indie A ma zon/Prime route as just wanted someone to read my crime novels, which they have but few leave reviews because authors cannot tout for reviews as other sellers can. You get one bright spark that leaves a stupid one star review and it kills your book, even though it is well written and the plot is different. It is harder for indies as Publishers too try to kill them off. As for writing courses, the only ones to make any money are the ones with books on how to write! DM will plug Publishers books but not indies. Try C J Greenwood's Murder Squad or CID series, all set in Britain late l970-1990's, or Ruthless, set in England and Mexico. Esme Gough's An Incorrigible Liar is hilarious, if you like to laugh (adult in places) or her Romantic Saga, Madeleine and Felix that has a very happy ending.

= I wouldn't say 10 years of applying to agents in wasted; surely in that time you're constantly editing, tweaking and polishing your book and raising it to a higher level?! Maybe fate knows better than you when your work is ready for public consumption!

KB, England, United Kingdom
Well, I have just been signed up by an agent for my debut novel and am now waiting, with fingers and toes crossed, hoping a publisher will buy it. That is the hardest part of all because it is so subjective. Everyone has different tastes and even if I had just written War and Peace, some would not think it suitable for their publishing company! You can't really win, but I will not lose hope. It would be my dream come true to get published.

SarahCork82, Cork, Ireland
Congratulations KB - getting signed by an agent is such an achievement in itself! Wishing you the best of luck for the future!

Lars Norr, Nössemark, Sweden
KB - some of the best authors/books were actually turned down by publishing houses when they started out. Including people like Stephen King, Mark Twain, etc. If nothing else an author should not get discouraged. If a publishing house turns you down then self publish > use pennames & write different ideas > find your niche, grow a fanbase & go crazy.

Thebrightestspark, IntheUniverse, United Kingdom
If you are truly a writer, nothing will stand in your way, not even meal times. You will sit their and write until you have finished, or think you have, and then you will start editing, and eiditing. You will live through your book. If you do not, you are not a writer as writing is like being an artist but you paint with words.

Taneem, Devon, United Kingdom
I started writing a novel but it has been sitting in a drawer for many years now.A difficult life got in the way and I lost my inspiration.

Toothsayer, Green and Pleasant, United Kingdom
Me too, and the annoying thing is that I still think about it almost every day. Time to get back to it I think, how about you?

 

[WereBear]

She blogged about how disconcerting it was 'falsifying' (as the Asperger brain sees it!) what was essentially her online diary so that it made a readable book. I almost think it takes a NT brain to deviate from the 'truth' like that and restructure and rearrange the information for book form - lopping and hacking and adding. At least for an Asperger to do it, they'd have to say to themselves 'How would a NT approach this?' - to get the right pace and level of clarity. Or how do you see it? Would be interesting to know your process.

I agree with her somewhat: many novels used to be told in diary form, to pick up on the immediacy of a moment, but once again, this is crafted. It is designed that way from the beginning. Taking diary entries and making them into a book likewise takes craft, to make them flow, to give them a plot.

I learned, over several drafts, that blog posts are meant to be read one at a time, and if we try to glue them together into a book, it shows. What I did was clump some of my posts together, extract the common ideas, and then write a chapter about those ideas.

Blog posts tend to bounce all over with different topics of the subject. We look out the window over a garden and see the flowers which attract us. Books are meant to flow from one idea to another. We build a path to take people through the garden and show them all the flowers.

Just got my first review and it’s a FIVE STAR - so I must have done it right

 

[WereBear]

I have to agree with this person:

Lars Norr, Nössemark, Sweden
KB - some of the best authors/books were actually turned down by publishing houses when they started out. Including people like Stephen King, Mark Twain, etc. If nothing else an author should not get discouraged. If a publishing house turns you down then self publish > use pennames & write different ideas > find your niche, grow a fanbase & go crazy.

This is the path I have had chosen for me

Part of it is the degeneration of the publishing business. When I got a top agent in the 1980s, he got me read all over the place. And my stuff was praised. But, inevitably, the third level; the marketing level; would reject me because I was too “cross-genre.” Now such things are hot and popular. I was too ahead of my time

But see, that’s the job of marketing; seeing the market coming and taking advantage of it. They didn’t do that. Now, things have become even worse; ten years ago, when I got rejected, the subtext was, “Who are you? If you aren’t already a celebrity we aren’t interested.”

Hey, your job is to make me a celebrity! But they no longer know what is good or interesting. They have no “vision” only old sales figures, which are gamed for profit; for instance, in the US, right wing “thinkers” churn out books which conservative money buys in bulk to make them look popular. Months later there are cardboard bins of them in discount places. No one reads them, but these clowns are “best-selling authors.”

The “awful book that was a huge bestseller” is epitomized by the Fifty Shades of Gray situation. This was Twilight fan fiction (which was another lousy book) that got popular because it was about BDSM. Only it was terrible practice that was unethical, it was horribly written, but it was soft-core porn people could read without hiding the cover and people bought it. Movie sucked too, but the marketing had already been done. So they made the movie.

 

[WereBear]

= I wouldn't say 10 years of applying to agents in wasted; surely in that time you're constantly editing, tweaking and polishing your book and raising it to a higher level?! Maybe fate knows better than you when your work is ready for public consumption!

There is a certain level of expertise needed. But really, the key to mass consumption is NOT in the quality of one’s craft. Sadly. There’s a great example in science fiction, which gives two main awards. The Hugo, which is voted on at the convention, is the popular vote, the fan, choice. The Nebula is given by fellow science fiction writers.

These prizes rarely overlap.

This is just sheer math. There are not enough people to appreciate exquisite prose that will make it a hugely popular work. Hugely popular is accessible. Read by people who don’t read much, and get caught up in the sweep of everyone talking about it and marketing putting it in front of their faces all the time.

If we look over the decades of the Best Picture Oscar, we see the same thing. Citizen Kane lost to How Green Was My Valley. Now, who watches this tale of a boy coming of age in a 19th century Welsh mining town? While Citizen Kane is considered THE finest example of movie-making art. (Which I agree with, BTW.)

I have a friend who loves literary stuff. She’s always reading the latest Nobel prize winners. She read one of my thrillers, and she was up all night with a pounding heart. She was impressed with the writing, and yet did not become a thriller reader. This wasn’t what she read books for

 

[DuckRabbit]

I agree with her somewhat: many novels used to be told in diary form, to pick up on the immediacy of a moment, but once again, this is crafted. It is designed that way from the beginning. Taking diary entries and making them into a book likewise takes craft, to make them flow, to give them a plot.

I learned, over several drafts, that blog posts are meant to be read one at a time, and if we try to glue them together into a book, it shows. What I did was clump some of my posts together, extract the common ideas, and then write a chapter about those ideas.

Blog posts tend to bounce all over with different topics of the subject. We look out the window over a garden and see the flowers which attract us. Books are meant to flow from one idea to another. We build a path to take people through the garden and show them all the flowers.

Just got my first review and it’s a FIVE STAR - so I must have done it right

Congratulations! What a great review. I'd be keen to read your cat stories. I can't stand stereotypes about cats being unaffectionate etc. They are incredibly affectionate! Often we get out of animals what we put into them, and if we don't, there's a high chance they've been damaged by humans or deprivation in their past. In which case I believe it's our job to make it up to them. In Bali I asked a local why all the cats' tails were docked and he replied something to the effect "To stop them from being so naughty". Unbelievable human projection! Can't handle a cat's independence. Speaks volumes about the human need to control and dominate animals. Some people use the bible to justify this hideous attitude towards animals.

Your story of writing and self-publishing this book is inspirational to anyone struggling to win the agent/publisher lottery, myself included. It's a lottery for agents and publishers too: what sells and what doesn't - often not what they'd expect. It seems the collective unconscious has rhythms, values, tastes and timings of its own.

"The most that any one of us can seem to do is to fashion something – an object or ourselves – and drop it into the confusion, make an offering of it, so to speak, to the life force."
~ Ernest Becker.

 

[DuckRabbit]

I have to agree with this person:



This is the path I have had chosen for me

Part of it is the degeneration of the publishing business. When I got a top agent in the 1980s, he got me read all over the place. And my stuff was praised. But, inevitably, the third level; the marketing level; would reject me because I was too “cross-genre.” Now such things are hot and popular. I was too ahead of my time

But see, that’s the job of marketing; seeing the market coming and taking advantage of it. They didn’t do that. Now, things have become even worse; ten years ago, when I got rejected, the subtext was, “Who are you? If you aren’t already a celebrity we aren’t interested.”

Hey, your job is to make me a celebrity! But they no longer know what is good or interesting. They have no “vision” only old sales figures, which are gamed for profit; for instance, in the US, right wing “thinkers” churn out books which conservative money buys in bulk to make them look popular. Months later there are cardboard bins of them in discount places. No one reads them, but these clowns are “best-selling authors.”

The “awful book that was a huge bestseller” is epitomized by the Fifty Shades of Gray situation. This was Twilight fan fiction (which was another lousy book) that got popular because it was about BDSM. Only it was terrible practice that was unethical, it was horribly written, but it was soft-core porn people could read without hiding the cover and people bought it. Movie sucked too, but the marketing had already been done. So they made the movie.

Agree that writers usually need an established "frame" around them before anyone will look at their writing i.e., already well known. Do you think part of the problem is that many agents/publishers are NT, so they base their decision on what's popular, whereas Aspergers, being creative, are often ahead of the curve?

Also, NTs who get into company position like that are unlikely to relate to the values and preoccupations of Aspergers. Everything is seen through the NT lens, as demonstrated in this blog: Representing Difference as Pathology: An Example from Simon Baron-Cohen’s The Science of Evil
There is some progress in terms of 'disability literature', I believe it's called (e.g., The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Nighttime; The Rosie Project) but not all Aspergers are writing about Aspergers; some are writing about their own interests or just have story to tell or some humour to express.

I agree the Fifty Shades film was horrible - the actors were so miscast for one thing. Hence this thread: I'm fascinated by the phenomenon of weak/inept creative work being singled out for mass distribution, while so much good work doesn't get picked. I'm not just talking about high-brow literary writing, but also just really good stories. Stephenie Meyer (Twilight trilogy) makes the important distinction between writers and storytellers; she classifies herself as a storyteller. I'm fascinated by the value of "WHO YOU ARE" being prioritised over the quality of the work. Perhaps if all books were published without the author name on them, people would be forced to judge the innate qualities of the book and wouldn't rely on ready-made "frames", such as already being known to people. I'm also fascinated by works being dismissed, and then rising to acclaim in the fullness of time cf. the shockingly fickle judgements of Sylvia Plath's novel 'The Bell Jar'.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

'm fascinated by the value of "WHO YOU ARE" being prioritised over the quality of the work

Depending on genre is part of it the halo effect?