Suck it up, buttercup

[OkRad]

I would say that no one has an easy life. That said, there are some who lack bootstraps. Not everyone is able to succeed no matter how hard they try. Then there are so many born into certain caste systems and poverty and abuse and terrible systems, etc etc.

Success is like a feedback loop. You need certain things to get it and in turn you are able to feed it back.

Now there are those who , against all odds have astounded everyone. They write books about it, too!

But more than one poet/philosopher/playwrite has echoed the idea that most men live lives of quiet desperation. I don't know if I believe it or not, but just things I think about when this topic comes up.

So thank you for posting because it brought up so many and varied responses!

 

[Suzanne]

Because we tend to think in black and white, it is hard to see that there is a grey area and that is, the one where aspies do not wish to be seen as victim; just a bit of respect and dignity; whereas some may indeed bemoan their lot and in that light, one may not be able to help say: oh give it a break!

 

[OlLiE]

the two points are not mutually exclusive

 

[OlLiE]

i would also add that she did really well presenting it, you can see was coached to manage her speech rhythm and visual engagement well

 

[Bella Pines]

What do you think? Which of these two points of view do you lean towards? Does that make you feel guilty? How much tolerance or how much of a leg up should we expect from neurotypicals? Is there an "us versus them" mentality? Is this a civil rights issue? Is it an Aspies-need-to-learn-to-live-in-the-real-world issue?

Neither and nothing makes me feel guilty.

Both opinions give a narrow perspective. The poor setup upon aspie victim. But this doesn't have to be the case.

EVERYONE has some struggle or the other. NTs more than the ND/aspie. After my 2nd child, I had all sorts for hormones rushing around, I was happy/sad/depressed, good job it faded because it was exhausting. NTs live like that every day. Worrying if people "like them", trying/needing to fit in to a social group without any rules that dictate how to fit in. And how many bleeding hearts/ dumped NTs come here for reassurance? NDs really do suffer, every single day, way more than aspies.

So in an ideal world, everyone should give everyone else special treatment, it's a 2 way street (just with a lot more noise and traffic coming from their lane...)

 

[pamelaperejil]

Well I don't think it's as simple as one of the other. I strongly support 'reasonable adjustments' in the workplace and support in schools etc. but I have very little time for the sort of victim mentality and entitlement that some people display.

Agreed. But that's where the problem lies. Both sides need to compromise but you can't make a hard and fast rule for when and how. So, at any point in time, either side can accuse the other of not doing enough.

It is not NTs fault if they react badly to poor social skills, they cannot read minds and cannot automatically know that you are on the spectrum and not just rude or a creeper. If you are not qualified for a job you are not qualified, regardless of whether your lack of qualification is due to autism.

I'm speaking more of fitting in with the social/conformist culture that goes hand in hand with the job than not having the requisite set of skills. My Aspie father struggled as a lawyer. Not because he lacked on the job skills, but more because of just being odd. Not fitting in well with his associates, when so much importance was placed on fitting in. I've had similar and serious problems at work. I'm a cook, I don't need to socialize. It's definitely not a job requirement. But the simply being odd part hurt me a lot. I'm confident I wasn't rude or a creeper. I was just different in a way that was easily exploitable, I think, and worked for some really unscrupulous people.

Those people were creeps and I consider myself well rid of them. You can't make people be nice or decent. But it did create serious problems in terms of finding a job, after a couple of bad experiences. It took a major toll.

So, while I can understand the mentality, I do think it's more complicated than 'suck it up, buttercup'.

 

[pamelaperejil]

The other way I see this is that he didn't participate in an illegal activity for them, so he won.

That's my take on this. Nevertheless, he was a friend in need of moral support and I failed to give it. Which makes me a bad friend, I think, regardless of whether or not I was "right". Sometimes it's just about giving the other person what they need.

 

[WildCat]

In a perfect world, everyone would get special treatment, hold hands with each other and be as they are without worry. Maybe in a distant fantasy land buried deep in the imagination, because last I checked there aren't any unicorns and rainbows peppering the landscape.

Once you've woken up, you realize this isn't a perfect world. It's a flawed world chock full of flawed individuals who, unless they learn from their errors and learn to adapt to their environment to the best of their abilities, will find themselves struggling. Even then, there's no guarantee of anything. I think there's always a bit of luck involved wherever you are on this planet, so even the hardiest of humans will find themselves in deep water beyond their control. Yoda gave some good advice on this, but not everyone seems to be listening.

Concerning the supposed 1-2% of those on the spectrum and not everyone else, we're no less exempt from the laws of the jungle than anyone else, so I really don't get the victim mentality or having to carefully tiptoe on eggshells for one person here. If someone feels comfortable with wearing a crown and demanding special status just because, I say let them and see how long everyone puts up with it.

 

[Fridgemagnetman]

because last I checked there aren't any unicorns and rainbows peppering the landscape.

The nearest I got was the unicorn convention at Niagara falls.

Rainbows everywhere.

There may not have been a unicorn convention.
My memories not the best.
There definitely should have been.

There was a tea exhibition, I sat down at, after it closed.
I had a massive hiccuping attack.
People came up to me to ask about tea.
So ,in between hiccups, I started talking about lapsang souchong.

Note to add :
Pretending you're hosting a tea exhibition at Niagara falls is not a cure for hiccups.
Nor does it make unicorns appear.

 

[Progster]

It is NTs who are a majority and they are the ones that educate us, hire us, live and work with us, they are the ones who run the show, it's their game and we need to play by their rules if we wish to partake in the society which is essentially run by them. We cannot expect establishments to change to suit our needs and our way of thinking, that's just not going to happen. So inevitably we are going to need to make some adjustments to fit in. But, regardless whether we are minority or not, we are still a part of that community and we should have some say and we should have some rights to reasonable accommodations in educational insitutions, at work, in relationships. We also have the right to be treated fairly and respected - unfortunately, prejudice is a major factor in many institutions of society, and this needs to change.

 

[Jacoby]

Everybody's situation is different, I always dislike the people that like to constantly harp on the 'strengths' of Autism because we all don't have the same capabilities and potential. If it's not a disability for you then maybe you don't need the label so don't try to hijack it from people that do to boost your self esteem because there are people that genuinely need the assistance more than a label in an identity obsessed world.

Life isn't fair but I don't know what use there is in telling people this, do you think it is motivating? The more its repeated the more it seems like a mantra to the person saying it than any meaningful advice. We may all have to 'pull ourselves' up from our bootstraps but there are very few happy warriors, being left alone to rot leaves a person very bitter & angry. We can't expect anybody to change or help us whatsoever? Telling that to somebody that is already struggling to see the light at the end of the tunnel is not helpful at all, it's demotivating if anything because why would anybody want to make such an effort when it could be totally meaningless? The people saying this stuff seem to want to rectify the guilt in their mind because of the favor/fortune befallen on to them, you deserve that because you worked hard not because you were lucky or born into circumstance? Most prefer to think of it that way, it the sufferers fault for their suffering.

 

[Nervous Rex]

I'm torn between the two points of view: 1) that Aspies face special challenges and are misunderstood and undervalued by NTs and need to be given a break/special tolerance sometimes ...and... 2) that life just isn't fair and you need to pony up and do whatever it takes to succeed at life in the rat race.

Everybody faces unique challenges and every single person is a unique collection of strengths and weaknesses. I think I am responsible for doing what I can and for asking for help when I can't do something. I think this should apply to all people. If you can hold a job and support yourself (sustainably, meaning it won't drive you to breakdown), then you should. I can, so I feel like I should. If someone else can't hold a job and has to live in an assisted living facility, but can at least manage to do the dishes, I think they should do the dishes. We should all just do what we can.

When you ask about giving someone a break, the question becomes, "What should I do to give someone else a break?"

Is there an "us versus them" mentality?

An "us versus them" mentality is the result of mental shortcuts: Rather than taking the time to understand someone, I can sum them up in one label: Aspie, NT, Democrat, Republican, Foreigner, Black, White, Muslim, Christian, etc. The lack of understanding leads to contention and dumb behaviors that news outlets love.

The only way to get past it is to look at each person as their own unique person. I used to look at people and wonder what their problem was, asking myself, "Why can't this person manage to keep a budget? Why can't that person just lay off the alcohol? Why is that guy always late?"... and so on. Then my own faults reared up and smacked me down. Now I try (and am succeeding a little more each time I try) to just say, "That's their thing. I have my thing. Their thing might be just as hard for them to deal with as my thing is for me." In the end, the only way to truly understand people is to understand them one at a time.

 

[Peter Morrison]

Our modern world is reacting heavily to the needs and interests of people who have been marginalized and ignored. Though the efforts to stop excluding special needs individuals is definitely a plus for humanity, I think we have to be realistic when it comes to accommodating all needs of all people that can't fit into the on-going mainstream of acceptable behavior, skill, preference, and standard. It is the greater flow of the universe that we all must try to attach ourselves to. Most of what we have managed to address relates to discrimination. I believe that the most widespread application of accommodation has been the accessibility of wheelchairs and construction standards to allow for the movement and safety of people deemed handicapped (this is not the PC term, but it is universally understood). Not everyone's special need is visible to the rest of society. We usually only deal with it when we are confronted with it. At least, we have moved the consciousness of special needs and the difficulties people face when subjected to discrimination, discomfort, and inconvenience to the center of our social ethos. We are trying to make up for the imbalance created by nature, recognizing that it is unfair to exclude anyone for any reason that is born of our biases and ignorance.

In a fair and just world, we would all have the same exposure and access to life's opportunities and we would all have the skills and interests to pursue any profession or activity that gets our attention. We must be realistic and understand that not everyone can do everything. Every person has limitations, and some have more than others. We don't choose our limitations or the severity of our afflictions. We do our best to try and keep the playing field as even as possible, but we know that most people work with what they have and they do it on their own terms. There is a place for everyone if you have something to offer society. That balance between ability and interest becomes a person's personal quest.

Being on the spectrum means having a number of obstacles and hurdles to contend with. I'm not sure if what Asperger's doles out constitutes special consideration in the same way racial, age, gender, or ethnic bias does. Instead of highlighting what you can't do, put your attention into what you are able to do - and do well. There are a lot of people who are not on the spectrum who can be unintentionally rude, misunderstand something, have trouble making friends, be a bit clumsy, or obsess over their collection of matchbook covers. We are not so far out of the mainstream that we are incapable of functioning. We just have fewer choices if we have to be socially agile or multitask like an air traffic controller in a blizzard.

When it comes to being accepted, socially or into a job or institution, there are many reasons why a particular person is not selected for inclusion. The world is competitive, so don't expect a soccer scholarship if you have never played the game. The only thing you can do is bring forward the best you have to offer. A lot of selection is like the spin of a roulette wheel. You were lucky to be called in for an interview, and you were even luckier to be in the top three for selection. Clearly, you did something right - you capitalized on your abilities, not your shortcomings. You don't need to tell your potential employer that you hate waiting for people, and that you don't like okra. It has nothing to do with your ability to do the job. Being a useful and effective employee is what matters.

 

[albinoblanke]

I'm torn between the two points of view: 1) that Aspies face special challenges and are misunderstood and undervalued by NTs and need to be given a break/special tolerance sometimes ...and... 2) that life just isn't fair and you need to pony up and do whatever it takes to succeed at life in the rat race. The first point of view seems to plead a special case for Aspies, to "give them a pass" on certain behaviors. The second seems intolerant and harsh, and is perhaps an unreachable reality for many Aspies.

What do you think? Which of these two points of view do you lean towards? Does that make you feel guilty? How much tolerance or how much of a leg up should we expect from neurotypicals? Is there an "us versus them" mentality? Is this a civil rights issue? Is it an Aspies-need-to-learn-to-live-in-the-real-world issue?

What do you think about this piece:
The Discovery Of Aspie Criteria
http://www.tonyattwood.com.au/index...79:the-discovery-of-aspie-criteria&Itemid=181

Or this one:
Neurodiversity: the key that unlocked my world

Nt's only need to take the disabilities of autistics into consideration and act upon it if necessary and we, as autistics, shouldn't want to be looked at as a special case. If special treatment is needed then it will be implemented but adding even more extra thought to it is not always good.

Nt's also have problems of their own, who is then left to say "suck it up"?

 

[pamelaperejil]

Auxiliary Question:

For those of you who have answered, effectively, that 'suck it up buttercup' is the right response: has your personal success factored into your decision? Do you believe that, because you did it, anyone can do it? What would you say to the person who gave it everything they had and simply can't do it? Is it just the luck of the draw? Survival of the fittest? The way things are?

What is your opinion of people who cannot provide for themselves and need others to help them do it?

For those of you who have said it should be a compromise (and haven't answered already): what do you consider a "reasonable accommodation" that NTs should extend people on the spectrum?

 

[the_tortoise]

what do you consider a "reasonable accommodation" that NTs should extend people on the spectrum?

I don't think there is anything specific that can be considered universally "reasonable" for all autistic people -- only vague, general things like "understanding".

But then....I don't really consider "understanding" to be an accomodation....just something you should attempt to give everyone.

 

[albinoblanke]

Auxiliary Question:

For those of you who have answered, effectively, that 'suck it up buttercup' is the right response: has your personal success factored into your decision? Do you believe that, because you did it, anyone can do it? What would you say to the person who gave it everything they had and simply can't do it? Is it just the luck of the draw? Survival of the fittest? The way things are?

What is your opinion of people who cannot provide for themselves and need others to help them do it?

For those of you who have said it should be a compromise (and haven't answered already): what do you consider a "reasonable accommodation" that NTs should extend people on the spectrum?

I have difficulties being aware of my emotions and feelings.
All the stress a Nt would've been aware off of having, I just built up unconsciously and last year, after 19 years, I had my first meltdown because I wasn't even aware that the stress of my situation back then affected me that much, it just happened. The suck it up method can only work so far and for a lot of people on the spectrum, not work at all. People with autism didn't have a say in the matter when they were born. So if you were born to not be completely compatible with the world, "suck it up" is not going to work.

Like life, we have to adapt, not suck it up.

 

[MrSpock]

Is it just the luck of the draw? Survival of the fittest? The way things are?

Yes. All of those. Survival of the fittest always has a relevant context, that context is not only the planet, but perhaps more importantly (certainly more relevant) is the context of our society. Paris Hilton isn't particularly fit to survive in the forest fighting wolves, but she seems to be doing rather well in Hollywood or wherever she is. If you can, in spite of a 'disability' that would surely have been the end of any person fifty thousand years ago still provide well for your family and you have many grandchildren, you are by definition one of the fittest that survived to pass on your genes. Those genes again must compete for survival within the gene pool, their contexts being the rest of the genome of the individuals in which they find themselves. This is both the way things are and the luck of the draw. As is the country you're born in, who your parents are and whether or not you're on the spectrum.

What is your opinion of people who cannot provide for themselves and need others to help them do it?

Very few of us would do well in the forest against wolves. I'd outlast Paris though, I'm pretty sure. Nearly none of us can provide for ourselves without the help of others. I would suppose that Bill Gates might be thought of as a good provider, I wonder if you think that he had no help? Computers were already a thing before he got involved. Bill didn't invent them, nor the devices that provide the electricity on which they run, nor the mathematics that they use. He employed many thousands of people without whom he would have built relatively few computers and sold relatively little software. He didn't grow the food that those people ate, nor build the houses that they lived in...

As for reasonable accommodation, each individual might reasonably have a different point of view on this. We're technologically advanced enough to support all of us with relatively few people growing food and building houses, more so than at any other period in history. We choose to do other things, and those things might reasonably be called productive, and we might reasonably say that we 'need' most people to work. But we might also choose to streamline the workplace by only employing the 50% who are most employable. We might choose to employ the 80% who are most employable. What bothers me are people who expect that the vast majority of people should work with a bare minimum of accommodation. The more a person is apt to spout off about the problems caused by people on welfare etc, the more that those people should be in support of bending over backwards to make everyone as easily employable as they are. What I find irritating is those people who voice their opinions with conviction but have not thought it through even this far.

 

[Tesseract]

I accept the first view. If life isn't fair, it's only because people make it that way. Life should be fair.

 

[mw2530]

Just like politics, I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. But if both sides are too stuck in their thinking and don't consider other points of view, everyone loses. I believe the percentage of autistic people who are unemployed is well over 50%. No one wins. The autistic person loses out on financial security. Society loses out on talent. Reasonable accommodations can be made by employers. The solutions can be relatively simple in many cases. Society accommodates other disabilities. Handicap parking spots for example. Ramps for those in wheel chairs. Sure, things will never be completely fair for someone in a wheelchair, but many are able to work and live decent lives with some reasonable accommodations. Why can't some reasonable accommodations be made for autism? We are an under served segment of the population even for minorities. Why? Well, that is because our struggles are not understood completely. It is easy to see the challenges for someone with a physical disability. But not so easy for society to understand our challenges. Change will only be possible through accurate education.