Sexist terms

[Aspergers_Aspie]

Here's a story about cricket changing a term as it's sexist. Calling women also actors has taken off, wonder if batter will take off instead of batsman. Wonder if fisherman will become fisherperson. Any thoughts?

 

[Suzette]

My home town recently replaced their postmaster. The local paper ran an article about the new "postmistress". Very old fashioned!

Most women I know, myself included, are only offended that there are seperate words for men and women doing the same job. We don't care if the feminine version is dropped in favor of the "masculine" version. Just quit singling out gender. Gender makes no difference.

I do take issue some with the term "master". Some folk in the US think this word reminds them of slavery. But I think this is a little too specific and ignores "master" as a designation of expertise and experience. As in "master artisan", "master electrician" etc.

 

[ucrenegade]

Here's a story about cricket changing a term as it's sexist. Calling women also actors has taken off, wonder if batter will take off instead of batsman. Wonder if fisherman will become fisherperson. Any thoughts?

It's all redoncoulous I will never call anyone anything but a he or she.

 

[Varzar]

I agree with Suzette.
I think the best solution to all this is to just remove masculine/feminine words from English all together.

fisherman needn't become fisherperson. How about just fisher? A smith was never called smithman, why does a fisher need a masculine specifier?

And as far as pronouns go, I figure we should just have new pronouns that are gender non-specific and are used for males, females and enbys.

EDIT: I guess they and them are the non-specific pronouns.. But it would be nice if we had a way to distinguish singular vs. plural... Theys, Thems?

 

[Varzar]

Interesting article on the subject of pronouns and the history (which goes back quite far) of trying to adopt gender neutral pronouns:
The ultimate 21st-Century word?

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

AS long as no one asks me to change my surname, it is what it is.

 

[Suzette]

I agree with Suzette.
I think the best solution to all this is to just remove masculine/feminine words from English all together.

fisherman needn't become fisherperson. How about just fisher? A smith was never called smithman, why does a fisher need a masculine specifier?

And as far as pronouns go, I figure we should just have new pronouns that are gender non-specific and are used for males, females and enbys.

EDIT: I guess they and them are the non-specific pronouns.. But it would be nice if we had a way to distinguish singular vs. plural... Theys, Thems?

I am not bothered by singular/ plural pronouns. In English pronouns are always used in context so the quatity is always clear.

Tom went to the store. They wanted some orange juice. The Farleys went too. They wanted socks.

I will concede that "they" as a singular pronoun seems awkward but I think it is because of what we are used to.

 

[Varzar]

I am not bothered by singular/ plural pronouns. In English pronouns are always used in context so the quatity is always clear.

Tom went to the store. They wanted some orange juice. The Farleys went too. They wanted socks.

I will concede that "they" as a singular pronoun seems awkward but I think it is because of what we are used to.

Yeah, that was the conclusion of that article I just posted too. And they highlighted other areas of English that have changed and become normal and we don't think it sounds weird anymore. So, it's probably just a matter of me getting used to them/they taking on a new usage.

 

[Magna]

I agree with Suzette.
I think the best solution to all this is to just remove masculine/feminine words from English all together.

fisherman needn't become fisherperson. How about just fisher? A smith was never called smithman, why does a fisher need a masculine specifier?

And as far as pronouns go, I figure we should just have new pronouns that are gender non-specific and are used for males, females and enbys.

EDIT: I guess they and them are the non-specific pronouns.. But it would be nice if we had a way to distinguish singular vs. plural... Theys, Thems?

I like the ideas of fisher, smith, etc. That makes sense to me.

When it comes to some things, gender pronouns being associated with biological sex will still be inter-connected. Yes there are people, even a movement of sorts to shame people who are attracted to a certain sex alone (hetero) and believe that unless everyone is pansexual those that aren't are bigots, but that's not realistic.

So even if gender specific pronouns were erased the following would happen and understandably so:

Person 1 (hetero female): "I'm open to dating and being in a relationship."

Person 2: "Oh, you should meet a good friend of mine. You've got so much in common with them! They're your age too."

Person 1: "Interesting. What do they look like?"

Person 2: "They're tall, slender and they have brown hair."

Person 1: "They're male?"

Person 2: "Yes they are."

 

[Varzar]

Yes there are people, even a movement of sorts to shame people who are attracted to a certain sex alone (hetero) and believe that unless everyone is pansexual those that aren't are bigots, but that's not realistic.

I have not met any people like that. Certainly there's nothing wrong with being hetero, and if people are shaming others for that, well, that's obviously not cool either.

So even if gender specific pronouns were erased the following would happen and understandably so:

Person 1 (hetero female): "I'm open to dating and being in a relationship."

Person 2: "Oh, you should meet a good friend of mine. You've got so much in common with them! They're your age too."

Person 1: "Interesting. What do they look like?"

Person 2: "They're tall, slender and they have brown hair."

Person 1: "They're male?"

Person 2: "Yes they are."

That's true. I'm not sure this conversation was bad though. Odds are if they/them became the default pronouns though, describing someone's gender identity or biological gender might become one of the first things people describe (before tall, slender, brown hair). Especially if there was doubt between Person 1 and Person 2 that Person 1 was looking for a male.

It's not about erasing gender. It's about the language we use not making default assumptions about what someone's gender or gender identity is.

You can also think about from the perspective that like French still does, Old English used to have masculine/feminine associated with *every* noun. (e.g. la chaise, cause apparently chairs are female).
That was removed when we moved to Middle English, but we've kept gender specific pronouns. Now, we're just transitioning towards a new version of English that won't bother to highlight gender even when referring to other people. Probably in a couple hundred years, nobody will remember that we ever used he/him/she/her.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

My home town recently replaced their postmaster. The local paper ran an article about the new "postmistress". Very old fashioned!

Most women I know, myself included, are only offended that there are seperate words for men and women doing the same job. We don't care if the feminine version is dropped in favor of the "masculine" version. Just quit singling out gender. Gender makes no difference.

I do take issue some with the term "master". Some folk in the US think this word reminds them of slavery. But I think this is a little too specific and ignores "master" as a designation of expertise and experience. As in "master artisan", "master electrician" etc.

That is why I sorta prefer the honorific, "senpai."

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

i have enough issues with one language, do not know the grammar of my second language, which I do not use much. cleaning every thing up sounds like nailing gello to the wall.

 

[Magna]

I have not met any people like that. Certainly there's nothing wrong with being hetero, and if people are shaming others for that, well, that's obviously not cool either.



That's true. I'm not sure this conversation was bad though. Odds are if they/them became the default pronouns though, describing someone's gender identity or biological gender might become one of the first things people describe (before tall, slender, brown hair). Especially if there was doubt between Person 1 and Person 2 that Person 1 was looking for a male.

It's not about erasing gender. It's about the language we use not making default assumptions about what someone's gender or gender identity is.

You can also think about from the perspective that like French still does, Old English used to have masculine/feminine associated with *every* noun. (e.g. la chaise, cause apparently chairs are female).
That was removed when we moved to Middle English, but we've kept gender specific pronouns. Now, we're just transitioning towards a new version of English that won't bother to highlight gender even when referring to other people. Probably in a couple hundred years, nobody will remember that we ever used he/him/she/her.

I agree in that I don't think there's anything wrong with the conversation example I gave. I was simply saying that even if pronouns were genderless human beings would still largely make, inquire about, expect differentiation based on biological sex in situations related to attraction, "love", relationships, etc.

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I Have a trans gender person in my family what term is used to substitute for nepthew to niece, we had a bit of a discussion, Fellow bright Aspie, just invite us to the wedding. Not much of an issue to her. really got me confused.

 

[Varzar]

I Have a trans gender person in my family what term is used to substitute for nepthew to niece, we had a bit of a discussion, Fellow bright Aspie, just invite us to the wedding. Not much of an issue to her. really got me confused.

As of today, I think you'd likely just use she/her and niece for a trans-female. That is usually their preference as far as I have seen. But y'know, I'm sure you could just ask if uncertain.

As far as the future goes. Good question. Don't know how terms like nephew and niece might/might not get replaced by something gender neutral. We have some gender neutral familial terms already, like sibling, spouse, parent, cousin. But it does tend to get more gender specific as you go to parent's siblings, or sibling's children.

 

[Suzette]

I Have a trans gender person in my family what term is used to substitute for nepthew to niece, we had a bit of a discussion, Fellow bright Aspie, just invite us to the wedding. Not much of an issue to her. really got me confused.

Language is wonderful because it changes and grows more in response to social pressure than rules guided by academics. All it takes is for one person to choose something and use it consistently. Others will follow suit because it is a ready answer to a common problem. In days past you might describe someone who is family by "kinsman" or just "kin" . "My kin invited me to their wedding".

 

[Ronald Zeeman]

I did ask she doesn't really care I call her by name. My middle name is Sidney which has a masculine version and a feminine version. sometimes I do not use it much Have to think I OR Y. IF I can confuse myself how do others handle it.

 

[Gerald Wilgus]

Language is wonderful because it changes and grows more in response to social pressure than rules guided by academics. All it takes is for one person to choose something and use it consistently. Others will follow suit because it is a ready answer to a common problem. In days past you might describe someone who is family by "kinsman" or just "kin" . "My kin invited me to their wedding".

And I always get thrown by lack of good punctuation. Case in point an anime title without punctuation "Teasing Master Takagi-san, could either be "Teasing, Master Takagi-san, or "Teasing Master, Takagi-san. It is the latter.

 

[Au Naturel]

Much ado about nothing. Call people what they want to be called.

 

[Streetwise]

Here's a story about cricket changing a term as it's sexist. Calling women also actors has taken off, wonder if batter will take off instead of batsman. Wonder if fisherman will become fisherperson. Any thoughts?

There will always be male chauvinists and male predators