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SELF-MEDICATION

It turns out many of the AA Founders were undiagnosed Aspies, who self-medicated with alcohol and drugs. I find it ironic that NT's enjoy the fruits of these Aspie's labor, but most Aspies do not.

Why do you think that, I can’t find any evidence for it, is it simply your opinion? I would read any articles you could point me to that demonstrates that. I find it hard to believe that people known for having social and communication problems amongst other difficulties, would start an organisation based on having to meet strangers in unfamiliar surroundings and talk publicly to them randomly, while being expected to touch them in some way too. That’s more like the average aspies idea of a nightmare than anything else.

You seem to see a lot of people in AA/NA on the spectrum but that was certainly not what I saw when I attended, it was more like an NT social gathering, I was always very much on the far edge of whatever was happening. I don’t think that the 12 step program is something that many aspies would gravitate towards and as we are 1 in 63 statistically, there are unlikely to ever be much more than one aspie per meeting, at most.
 
Thank you! Your story is very educational. We Aspies are misunderstood and often ostracized for our social dyslexia. I openly share that I have Aspergers and am usually very well received, but I still have haters who insist social interaction is sufficient to overcome addiction. It's not! I have watch so many learn this the hard way. Like I said, it was Kismet that our lives intersected at this point. I wish you enough!
 
@jacinto Are you familiar with ‘smart recovery’? In my view it’s much more suitable for aspies than the alternatives. I like that it’s modern and science based, while openly evolving as scientific knowledge evolves. That means it will never be stuck in dogma, rhetoric or outdated pseudo science.

There is no need for a belief in god if a person doesn’t already have one, or for a belief in a ‘progressive disease’ which wants you dead.

It’s about empowerment and taking responsibility for yourself. I’ve found aspects of it extremely helpful while never attending any meetings which are said only to be necessary for a couple of years, not the rest of your life. It also doesn’t have the feel of a cult about it.

UK SMART Recovery
 
Why do you think that, I can’t find any evidence for it, is it simply your opinion? I would read any articles you could point me to that demonstrates that. I find it hard to believe that people known for having social and communication problems amongst other difficulties, would start an organisation based on having to meet strangers in unfamiliar surroundings and talk publicly to them randomly, while being expected to touch them in some way too. That’s more like the average aspies idea of a nightmare than anything else.
You seem to see a lot of people in AA/NA on the spectrum but that was certainly not what I saw when I attended, it was more like an NT social gathering, I was always very much on the far edge of whatever was happening. I don’t think that the 12 step program is something that many aspies would gravitate towards and as we are 1 in 63 statistically, there are unlikely to ever be much more than one aspie per meeting, at most.



Desperation makes for strange bedfellows. When confronted with the spectre of imminent death human beings are willing to endure any discomfort in order to live. The AA founders lived in a different time. AA in1935-1945 was quite different from AA 2018. Mental health was limited in its scope and Apergers was unheard of at the time. Alcoholism wasn't even considered a disease at that time. It was a moral failing. So alcoholics, who were the object of rejection, ridicule and scorn, found a fellowship that welcomed them and they clung to it. Attending meetings wasn't the focus because there simply wasn't an overabundance of meetings to attend. Belief in a power greater than human power, and a willingness to live by spiritual principles was all that was, and still is, necessary to recover from a hopeless state of mind and body.
I am 63 and was undiagnosed for 58 years. For 17 years in recovery I fought through depression. In 2012 a fellow Aspie heard my talk at an AA meeting and suggested I had been misdiagnosed as a sociopath. She asked what did I know about Aspergers, and thus started my journey that has brought me here. High functioning Aspies end up in the rooms of recovery quite often. They are undiagnosed and their imminent problem is a life and death matter, not a matter of discomfort. Besides, in order to recover one must become willing to be comfortable with feeling uncomfortable. Meetings last an hour. Putting up with NT's pales in comparison to the self-inflicted horrors of addiction.
The characteristics of the alcoholic and addict are very similar to Aspergers. This is why I thought AA was my tribe. I did share much in common with the other alcoholics, but after a while I started noticing a marked difference between me and others. I just considered it was my sociopathic behavior. There are many more like me. One out of ten people are alcoholic. That would include many Aspies. If there is only one in every meeting that is still a considerable number. There are over 150,000 AA meetings in the US alone.
In my 26 years in the fellowship many alcoholics and addicts have gravitated towards me because they heard something familiar when I shared my experience, strength and hope. I also offer an educational path to recovery that's based in the program in the AA Big Book. This is far different from the fellowship based recovery that is common today. What I offer is based on the original AA style recovery forged by the AA founders. Meeting attendance is optional, but many of those I help experience a spiritual awakening that alters their motives and outlook on life, and they go to meetings, not to stay sober, but to help others to get sober. This approach is more attractive to Aspies in recovery, who can't grasp the nuances of the fellowship. I only go to a couple of meetings every week, but I practice spiritual principles every day.
Many of the AA founders were traveling salesmen. This was a grinding career path, but for outcast alcoholics this was the only avenue of employment available to them. They didn't commiserate in meetings to share their tales of woe as many do in AA today. They were solitary messengers carrying a message of hope to alcoholics across the country. This would have been a perfect job for Aspies at the time. I worked as a courier for six years. It required limited human interaction. So I really relate to the AA pioneers.
I wish that I could refer you to a book that goes in depth on the subject of alcholism/addiction and Aspergers, but none exist. So I guess I am operating on opinion, but a very educated opinion. Just as my friend recognized my Aspergers in me, and I recognize it in others, my educated opinion of the AA founders was formed by me and other Aspies in recovery. When you work the 12 Steps you monitor your behavior. As such, you become an amateur behavorist. That is why my friend spotted the Aspergers trait in me, and it is the same power of observation that led me to my conclusion about the AA founders. I was blessed to have an AA sponsor who obsesses about AA history. He is my knowledge base that supplies much personal information about the AA founders. The idea of writing a book about this has crossed my mind. It would prove helpful to those who work with both Aspergers and addiction. These disciplines are so intensive that very few professionals cross study into the different fields. But as a layperson with knowledge and experience with both Aspergers and addiction, I can offer much to the professionals. I have not only my experience to draw on, but the experience of Aspies in recovery, as well as those in this forum, like yourself, who haven't found success with 12 Step fellowships.
 
@Starfire

I am aware of Smart recovery. If they are helping alcoholics and addicts that is great. But their reachis limited since they do not meet. 12 Step recovery isnt for everyone, but it helps millions of alcoholics and addicts with its approach. That cannot be denied. Even in AA there is a burgeoning movement of alcoholics of the atheist and agnostictemperament. They are welcomed like any other alcoholics. There is no forced adherence to the Steps. Most people in recovery do not use the Steps. Instead they rely on the fellowship to stay sober. This is what I believe most people 9n this thread encountered. There are no dues or fees for membership in AA, nor does anyone have to accept the spiritual approach the Steps offer. I know what has worked for me and millions of other alcoholics and addicts of various tvpes. In my experience the 12 Step approach is more acceptable to Aspirs in AA. We not only recover from our addictions, but find we are better able to navigate the NT's world.
 
@jacinto Are you familiar with ‘smart recovery’? In my view it’s much more suitable for aspies than the alternatives. I like that it’s modern and science based, while openly evolving as scientific knowledge evolves. That means it will never be stuck in dogma, rhetoric or outdated pseudo science.

There is no need for a belief in god if a person doesn’t already have one, or for a belief in a ‘progressive disease’ which wants you dead.

It’s about empowerment and taking responsibility for yourself. I’ve found aspects of it extremely helpful while never attending any meetings which are said only to be necessary for a couple of years, not the rest of your life. It also doesn’t have the feel of a cult about it.

UK SMART Recovery

I had superficially grazed over the NA alternative sites like this before. But since you were kind enough to go to the trouble of posting the link I looked into it again a little more deeply. It's interesting & I downloaded a couple of PDFs they offer, but I found myself running into what must've inhibited me before:

1.) It still entails locating & attending meetings - something that I cannot imagine being anything other than an excruciating experience. Maybe somehow I happen to find a meeting nearby (I won't, I live on the outskirts of town). And then maybe I find myself somehow enjoying them instead of silently suffering through them. Maybe it's even a very accepting environment & find myself actively & vocally participating. Sooner or later, there will be some person or persons who, for some convoluted NT reason that will NEVER be disclosed to me so I that I can make amends, will launch some stupid behind-the-scenes (at first) campaign against me - just well placed remarks here & there or even behind-the-back facial expressions or something like that. And I will find myself pitted not against the substance abuse problem as an adversary, but against the incomprehensible and subtle forces that motivate NT behavior, and become overwhelmed & distracted by that.

2.) At each of these alternative NA sites, the only way to learn the concepts & philosophies that they're founded on is to buy a bunch of their literature from their online stores. I can't find free online versions of the material. And even if I had a lot of money to spend on something that has only the offhand chance of proving useful, it bothers me that they're selling it. They all claim to be supported by donations, but it seems to me they're supported by holding information hostage that, if it's what it's supposed to be, could save lives.

You said you'd found certain aspects helpful and haven't attended meetings. If it's not too much trouble, could you be more specific? What particular book, activity, or whatever would be a good place to start?
 
@jacinto
It’s absolutely not too much trouble, it’s no trouble at all!

Let me just address Q2 first. I’ve also seen programs that sell endlessly and bolt on one product after another after another and the cost quickly escalates. Smart sell one book called the handbook which is I believe around 10 dollars US, and that’s it. The book is the same material that they give away for free on the website but is only available simply because some old fashioned people like me, enjoy the experience of a real book they can touch, smell, make notes in, and refer to without the need of a computer or kindle or any other e-book reader. If you’re happy to download and print PDFs, there is no need to buy it unless you don’t want lots of papers lying around in your place. It’s convenient for me to have it all ordered and together. It is available for kindle etc too for the same reasons.

Q1 I hear you, and I get it. There is no requirement to attend any meetings they are optional for those that want them, I didn’t and don’t. There is a very active and friendly online forum however, where support and encouragement is freely given along with help regarding the ‘tools’ and coping with unwanted thoughts, urges etc etc. Have a good look around here -

SMART Self-Management And Recovery Training

As a place to begin, perhaps get this free app from the App Store, I’m not sure about android -

SMART Recovery Cost Benefit Analysis by SMART Recovery ‎SMART Recovery Cost Benefit Analysis on the App Store

It’s a very simple but I find very helpful tool.
The purpose is -

Using the CBA Cost-Benefit Analysis Tool – UK SMART Recovery

In essence - “seeing all the negative consequences of addiction listed in one place is very powerful. On the positive side, no one really knows what they like or don’t like about living free of their addiction until they have done so for some time.”

That’s where I started. I find when an urge rises from nowhere and I have selective memory only about the bit I enjoy, the CBA tool makes me stop, think, put things in perspective and buys me some time rather than just act on it. Be absolutely honest, no one needs to see or read it but you, it’s for you. The CBA app can and will be added too over time as your perspectives change and your reasons to use get less and less and your list of reasons to no longer use gets longer and longer.

I’m no expert on any of this, but it is a self-management system so you need to be responsible and motivate yourself to make your changes. There is no handing it over, or dependence on a sponsor or endless meetings. You need self reliance and some self discipline. Please feel free to contact me any time if any of this is any help, I’m learning it on my own just like you.
 
@Jerome

I’m a little lost here, when you say -

“I also offer an educational path to recovery that's based in the program in the AA Big Book. This is far different from the fellowship based recovery that is common today. What I offer is based on the original AA style recovery forged by the AA founders.

It sounds like you are running your own thing using AA, but outside the AA governing body, is that correct? I wonder if you are qualified to offer an “educational path” do you have teaching qualifications and have you been vetted by the police and certified as my wife who is a professional teacher has to do I believe every three years?

One out of ten people are alcoholic. That would include many Aspies. If there is only one in every meeting that is still a considerable number.

I think I perhaps didn’t explain this point clearly. 1 in 63 of the general population was what I thought was the correct figure but in the U.K. according to this organisation, it’s closer to 1 in 100 of the population is on the autistic spectrum. Autism facts and history - NAS

If we accept your figure of %10 of the population is an alcoholic or drug user, then %10 of the autistic population may be also. That’s 1 in 1000. By no means will all of them use AA/NA and there is no evidence to suggest that’s the case. However, if half of them did for arguments sake, that’s 1 in 1500 people that will be on the spectrum that has a drug/drink problem and may attend the fellowship. The chance of running into one Aspie in a meeting nevermind more than one, is extremely slim.

I wish that I could refer you to a book that goes in depth on the subject of alcholism/addiction and Aspergers, but none exist.

That’s not the case, have you read this for example -

https://www.amazon.com/Asperger-Syndrome-Alcohol-Drinking-Cope/dp/1843106094

I read it a couple of years ago I imagine you would probably enjoy it.

I am aware of Smart recovery. If they are helping alcoholics and addicts that is great. But their reachis limited since they do not meet

I don’t know why you think that, they do indeed have structured face to face meetings on a daily basis in different locations like AA/NA. The times are available in the the link I provided depending on location I believe. They also hold regular online meetings for people who may live in a rural location or simply prefer that. While I’ve been to hundreds of NA meetings I’ve never been to a smart recovery one.

Anyway, you are clearly having great success in your recovery and I have much respect to you for that, despite our no doubt disagreeing on many things. There is no one size fits all in recovery, but you seem to have found what works for you, and that’s fantastic, very inspirational!

P.s If my percentage calculation is incorrect I apologise, that’s because I’m replying from work and I simply can not multi task successfully. Please feel free to correct me, as I’m having a mental blank with numbers jumping around in my head, and I can not put them into any meaningful order they will not stay still. It’s like trying to count a plateful of ants.
 
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It sounds like you are running your own thing using AA, but outside the AA governing body, is that correct? I wonder if you are qualified to offer an “educational path” do you have teaching qualifications and have you been vetted by the police and certified as my wife who is a professional teacher has to do I believe every three years?
I am not a certified teacher by any stretch of the imagination. I am your run of the mill Big Book thumper. I teach the Steps out of the AA Big Book in a meeting that's more of a class. These meetings we're standard fare in AA's pioneering days. I ran into some opposition initially, but the other AA's came around when they saw the success it produced. There really isn't a governing body in AA. Each group is autonomous
"If we accept your figure of %10 of the population is an alcoholic or drug user, then %10 of the autistic population may be also. That’s 1 in 1000. By no means will all of them use AA/NA and there is no evidence to suggest that’s the case. However, if half of them did for arguments sake, that’s 1 in 1500 people that will be on the spectrum that has a drug/drink problem and may attend the fellowship. The chance of running into one Aspie in a meeting nevermind more than one, is extremely slim."
My math may not add up, but I run into a lot of Aspies in AA. In fact, I ran into one at the meeting tonight. We discussed a special needs recovery meeting for Aspies. I think it is our Higher Power at work. I thought about her and this type of meeting and she pops up at the meeting. This happens all the time in my life. Kismet!!
"I don’t know why you think that, they do indeed have structured face to face meetings on a daily basis in different locations like AA/NA. The times are available in the the link I provided depending on location I believe. They also hold regular online meetings for people who may live in a rural location or simply prefer that. While I’ve been to hundreds of NA meetings I’ve never been to a smart recovery one."
That is great news about Smart recovery meetings, especially the online meetings. I was going to suggest online meetings to a few of the people on this thread who have problems with face to face meetings.
"Anyway, you are clearly having great success in your recovery and I have much respect to you for that, despite our no doubt disagreeing on many things. There is no one size fits all in recovery, but you seem to have found what works for you, and that’s fantastic, very inspirational!
P.s If my percentage calculation is incorrect I apologise, that’s because I’m replying from work and I simply can not multi task successfully. Please feel free to correct me, as I’m having a mental blank with numbers jumping around in my head, and I can not put them into any meaningful order they will not stay still. It’s like trying to count a plateful of ants."
Thank you! Don't worry about the math ants. I always say if it helps one alcoholic or addict its worthwhile. And thanks for the link to the book. I will check it out.
 
I always say if it helps one alcoholic or addict its worthwhile. And thanks for the link to the book. I will check it out.

Exactly, and that’s what it’s all about! There are many paths to the summit of a mountain, what is important is that we are able to reach the summit or at least give it our best shot, not the clothing we are wearing or feel comfortable in on the journey up.

I was going to suggest online meetings to a few of the people on this thread who have problems with face to face meetings.

Are you familiar with InTheRooms? It’s an app and accessible from a computer I believe, that runs AA/NA, Refuge Recovery (Buddhist based, SMART recovery and other online meetings. It’s a great resource that is free and anonymous and is very suitable for Aspies. There are a lot of meetings on there every day 7 days a week.

In The Rooms by InTheRooms.com ‎In The Rooms on the App Store

There are other apps such as ‘recovery chat’ but that is a very hard nosed AA/NA. It’s generally intolerant towards other methods of recovery and will ‘take your inventory’ if you suggest other ways, despite it being an app designed for people of all persuasions to further each other’s knowledge and recovery.

Recovery Chat - Anonymous Alcoholics & Addiction by AFTY, INC. ‎Recovery Chat - Anonymous Alcoholics & Addiction on the App Store

Sober grid is more tolerant to differences and has largely superseded recovery chat because of that. Both apps are places for support and human connection but are not programs in themselves. There are others but there are the best known

Sober Grid - Social Network by Sober Grid, L.L.C. ‎Sober Grid - Social Network on the App Store

It’s been nice talking to you, I feel you have good intentions and are a very genuine person. Good luck in your ongoing recovery not that you need it. I’m still in a stage of progress not perfection, but it’s one day at a time for us all.
 

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