ND-ND marriage, anything I have not tried?

[Thinx]

To be fair, I imagine the same could be said about any gender.

 

[Aspychata]

To be fair, I imagine the same could be said about any gender.

Pretty soon we have QR phone codes or microchips on us with our yelp date ratings, and negative reviews can't be deleted. Maybe a good post to start here. What would my review say.... Oh dear.

 

[Neonatal RRT]

My girlfriend says men should come with manuals.

Women too. I just think most couples who are struggling haven't been able to open up to each other enough to communicate well and express how they both wish to be communicated with. That's a seriously uncomfortable and vulnerable position to put oneself in,...but it's a beautiful thing if both can do it.

Seriously, though, the corpus callosum (CC) is thinner in most males, thicker in most females,...and within the context of regulating and processing emotions during a social interaction, the corpus callosum nerve bundles do serve that purpose. At the children's hospital, we do have interactions with children with CC agenesis. It's a known condition, roughly 1:4000 births. Interestingly, in one study, when comparing emotional intelligence of folks with an ASD and a group with CC agenesis, the group with the ASD where actually MORE impaired. So, obviously, a lot more is going on with emotional intelligence besides the differences in CC thickness noted between males and females. Emotional Intelligence in Agenesis of the Corpus Callosum

At certain levels of this conversation,...although we all need to treat each other with respect and love,...although we should treat each other as "equal" partners within the context of our relationships,...we are never going to be equal. I don't mean this in any derogatory way,...I mean we are different. If two people have asymmetrical intelligences,...stop fighting it,...USE it. I want my wife on my team,...and I hope she wants me on hers,...but on many metrics, we are not equal,...let's not BS ourselves. We are an absolutely formidable "monster" together though,...if we are playing a game with a group of people around a table,...and I could choose my partner, it will always be her. The same goes for being together as partners through life,...we lean on each other a lot. Neither of us can be all things,...so for the benefit of the team,...we each do what we do best.

 

[Aspychata]

Women too. I just think most couples who are struggling haven't been able to open up to each other enough to communicate well and express how they both wish to be communicated with. That's a seriously uncomfortable and vulnerable position to put oneself in,...but it's a beautiful thing if both can do it.

Seriously, though, the corpus callosum (CC) is thinner in most males, thicker in most females,...and within the context of regulating and processing emotions during a social interaction, the corpus callosum nerve bundles do serve that purpose. At the children's hospital, we do have interactions with children with CC agenesis. It's a known condition, roughly 1:4000 births. Interestingly, in one study, when comparing emotional intelligence of folks with an ASD and a group with CC agenesis, the group with the ASD where actually MORE impaired. So, obviously, a lot more is going on with emotional intelligence besides the differences in CC thickness noted between males and females. Emotional Intelligence in Agenesis of the Corpus Callosum

At certain levels of this conversation,...although we all need to treat each other with respect and love,...although we should treat each other as "equal" partners within the context of our relationships,...we are never going to be equal. I don't mean this in any derogatory way,...I mean we are different. If two people have asymmetrical intelligences,...stop fighting it,...USE it. I want my wife on my team,...and I hope she wants me on hers,...but on many metrics, we are not equal,...let's not BS ourselves. We are an absolutely formidable "monster" together though,...if we are playing a game with a group of people around a table,...and I could choose my partner, it will always be her. The same goes for being together as partners through life,...we lean on each other a lot. Neither of us can be all things,...so for the benefit of the team,...we each do what we do best.

Your insights are very linear and nicely presented, l never feel you are preaching.

 

[yogabanana]

To be fair, I imagine the same could be said about any gender.

I wish I had a manual for my own self lol. Wait, what is that thing that usually puts me in a good mood? Page 47...?

 

[yogabanana]

Women too. I just think most couples who are struggling haven't been able to open up to each other enough to communicate well and express how they both wish to be communicated with. That's a seriously uncomfortable and vulnerable position to put oneself in,...but it's a beautiful thing if both can do it.

Seriously, though, the corpus callosum (CC) is thinner in most males, thicker in most females,...and within the context of regulating and processing emotions during a social interaction, the corpus callosum nerve bundles do serve that purpose. At the children's hospital, we do have interactions with children with CC agenesis. It's a known condition, roughly 1:4000 births. Interestingly, in one study, when comparing emotional intelligence of folks with an ASD and a group with CC agenesis, the group with the ASD where actually MORE impaired. So, obviously, a lot more is going on with emotional intelligence besides the differences in CC thickness noted between males and females. Emotional Intelligence in Agenesis of the Corpus Callosum

At certain levels of this conversation,...although we all need to treat each other with respect and love,...although we should treat each other as "equal" partners within the context of our relationships,...we are never going to be equal. I don't mean this in any derogatory way,...I mean we are different. If two people have asymmetrical intelligences,...stop fighting it,...USE it. I want my wife on my team,...and I hope she wants me on hers,...but on many metrics, we are not equal,...let's not BS ourselves. We are an absolutely formidable "monster" together though,...if we are playing a game with a group of people around a table,...and I could choose my partner, it will always be her. The same goes for being together as partners through life,...we lean on each other a lot. Neither of us can be all things,...so for the benefit of the team,...we each do what we do best.

Agreed, not patronizing like that topic can often be. Inspiring too. I would love for there to be this sort of overwhelming positive mutual assessment and respect in my own relationship.

I am finding it interesting watching the field of AS research begin to pay better attention to how it presents in women. Like myself I often have a decent amount of emotional intelligence but I fail socially very often unless I'm surrounded by misfits, nerds, geeks, or people predisposed to be nonjudgmental like Unitarian universalists.

I think I would rather not notice or process emotional communication than notice and process but still do things wrong and not know what they are. Rejection stings, but when you can't make sense of it, resolve it to prevent it repeating, it's really hard.

 

[yogabanana]

Pretty soon we have QR phone codes or microchips on us with our yelp date ratings, and negative reviews can't be deleted. Maybe a good post to start here. What would my review say.... Oh dear.

There's a Black Mirror episode about that...

 

[Aspea]

But my struggle now, is he has given me so many signals that he really doesn't give a **** about my opinion or doesn't believe what I say (which he also admits is armor to avoid feeling like a p.o.s. for failing so much), that it's hard to believe he's coming to the situation in good faith.

When he is masking he is such a kind, generous, caring, empathetic person. But magically cannot empathize when I have bad feelings related to things he is doing or not doing. I don't get how he can do the one but not the other.

Bold added by me.

This is what it sounds like to me: over the course of his life (due to his low emotional/social intelligence), he has had many social failings, and has as a result built up this defensive structure, which is very very thick and very very strong. You and your needs are on the other side of this armor, and it sounds to me like he is unwilling to put down the armor so that he can reach you.

The reason he can empathize and be the person you need sometimes and not at other times is because it depends on his threat assessment level; if he feels like failure is on the horizon, the armor goes up and empathic connection is broken.

Part of why a conversation lasts so long is that I am unwittingly talking at him about my position. When he doesn't acknowledge what I am saying, I don't know that he hears me so I keep going. But then he is saturated and aggressive at setting limits vs giving an early warning so we can both adjust our communication.

It sounds like he may have a very small capacity for these things and perhaps you are overloading him. He may also not know where his limit is.

I remind him I feel invisible if he doesn't respond to what I say, and he doesn't seem to care that he isn't helping me feel heard. Caring would look like an apology and an immediate effort to correct the problem. Multiple professionals have explained to him if you want her to say less and not become louder you have to do better at showing you hear her.

He may have no concept of what "feeling invisible" means to you. I had never heard before, and had no concept or understanding of the term "emotional abandonment," until I read a few books about emotional intelligence. It took me a long time to grasp the concept, and I am still learning more about it. If a term is not understood, it will have a lot less significance. And too often, I assume I know what is meant by a term, but the other person means it differently. Perhaps when you relate these emotional concepts to him, he is not really getting it, while assuming he does get it.

Instead there seems to always be some kind of power struggle about my emotional needs which I do not understand at all. How does he not see that he is always making the problem bigger if I tell him this is what I need and he resists giving it to me?

Perhaps because this requires him removing his armor / accepting that he failed in meeting your needs. But you know what? That's ok. Everyone does that, including NT couples. If he does read this thread, I want to tell him that failing in social / emotional situations is ok, it doesn't mean you are a failure. We all have failed in this area. We are welcoming and accepting here.

It's time to get rid of any bad feelings/shame/negativity around failure and realize that failure is part of existing and living, and that our job is to learn how to do better.

I am not sure how to communicate differently. I have tried a "drive by" where I just give info and say don't respond now and then go. It does help in that immediate situation whenever he fully digests the information. But he often does not integrate it and apply it in a meaningful way.

As a thought; my husband is most of the time unable to "break through" to me using verbal communication. I am not a good verbal communicator and I learn much more from reading, not much from listening. For several years he tried to communicate things to me verbally with no luck but I had to read them in a book for it to "click."

Like he's too embarrassed to admit he can't remember our zip code so he just puts down the wrong one instead of ask for help finding the correct info. Or embarrassed that he made a promise then didn't keep it, so he finds some way to make me the problem instead of just being accountable.

Has he received any counseling for toxic shame? I would strongly recommend the book "Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving" by Pete Walker.

He is afraid to really look at himself. It is like pulling teeth to get any sign of self-awareness from him about those moments when it is obvious to both of us that he is the main source of things not working properly. He often handles his shame the way a narcissist handles their shame. But he agreed to pursue therapy for that, and at first therapy seemed to be helping but lately not so much.

Did he receive a diagnosis?

 

[Aspychata]

Bold added by me.

This is what it sounds like to me: over the course of his life (due to his low emotional/social intelligence), he has had many social failings, and has as a result built up this defensive structure, which is very very thick and very very strong. You and your needs are on the other side of this armor, and it sounds to me like he is unwilling to put down the armor so that he can reach you.

The reason he can empathize and be the person you need sometimes and not at other times is because it depends on his threat assessment level; if he feels like failure is on the horizon, the armor goes up and empathic connection is broken.



It sounds like he may have a very small capacity for these things and perhaps you are overloading him. He may also not know where his limit is.



He may have no concept of what "feeling invisible" means to you. I had never heard before, and had no concept or understanding of the term "emotional abandonment," until I read a few books about emotional intelligence. It took me a long time to grasp the concept, and I am still learning more about it. If a term is not understood, it will have a lot less significance. And too often, I assume I know what is meant by a term, but the other person means it differently. Perhaps when you relate these emotional concepts to him, he is not really getting it, while assuming he does get it.



Perhaps because this requires him removing his armor / accepting that he failed in meeting your needs. But you know what? That's ok. Everyone does that, including NT couples. If he does read this thread, I want to tell him that failing in social / emotional situations is ok, it doesn't mean you are a failure. We all have failed in this area. We are welcoming and accepting here.

It's time to get rid of any bad feelings/shame/negativity around failure and realize that failure is part of existing and living, and that our job is to learn how to do better.



As a thought; my husband is most of the time unable to "break through" to me using verbal communication. I am not a good verbal communicator and I learn much more from reading, not much from listening. For several years he tried to communicate things to me verbally with no luck but I had to read them in a book for it to "click."



Has he received any counseling for toxic shame? I would strongly recommend the book "Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving" by Pete Walker.



Did he receive a diagnosis?

This is an excellent observation. I think somebody l liked, closed up like a fan when l started asking things, he felt it was going straight to blame/shame land. But it wasn't. It was just a easy defense route for him to close down, push off, and later criticize me. So yes, this does happen. But l also saw a lot of honesty, a lot of progress, a lot more self-acceptance of himself. He blossomed. But l felt bad and then confused. Lol.

When you are more honest about your feelings, l am much quicker to be onboard for what you can and can't accept.

 

[yogabanana]

Bold added by me.

This is what it sounds like to me: over the course of his life (due to his low emotional/social intelligence), he has had many social failings, and has as a result built up this defensive structure, which is very very thick and very very strong. You and your needs are on the other side of this armor, and it sounds to me like he is unwilling to put down the armor so that he can reach you.

The reason he can empathize and be the person you need sometimes and not at other times is because it depends on his threat assessment level; if he feels like failure is on the horizon, the armor goes up and empathic connection is broken.



It sounds like he may have a very small capacity for these things and perhaps you are overloading him. He may also not know where his limit is.



He may have no concept of what "feeling invisible" means to you. I had never heard before, and had no concept or understanding of the term "emotional abandonment," until I read a few books about emotional intelligence. It took me a long time to grasp the concept, and I am still learning more about it. If a term is not understood, it will have a lot less significance. And too often, I assume I know what is meant by a term, but the other person means it differently. Perhaps when you relate these emotional concepts to him, he is not really getting it, while assuming he does get it.



Perhaps because this requires him removing his armor / accepting that he failed in meeting your needs. But you know what? That's ok. Everyone does that, including NT couples. If he does read this thread, I want to tell him that failing in social / emotional situations is ok, it doesn't mean you are a failure. We all have failed in this area. We are welcoming and accepting here.

It's time to get rid of any bad feelings/shame/negativity around failure and realize that failure is part of existing and living, and that our job is to learn how to do better.



As a thought; my husband is most of the time unable to "break through" to me using verbal communication. I am not a good verbal communicator and I learn much more from reading, not much from listening. For several years he tried to communicate things to me verbally with no luck but I had to read them in a book for it to "click."



Has he received any counseling for toxic shame? I would strongly recommend the book "Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving" by Pete Walker.



Did he receive a diagnosis?

This seems very on point with what I'm experiencing. Lots of thoughts but no time to write them all ATM.

If he got a diagnosis he has not told me, nor do I think he would tell me what it was. I know he has ADHD, depression, anxiety. I don't believe he has NPD. Just a narcissistic way of coping with shame.

I asked him to get treatment for toxic shame. I don't know if he's read that book you mention.

I don't really know how to tolerate his approach to these situations without becoming pretty damn pushy because it's Not Fair that he is refusing to make amends for some minor issue and it's all out of control because the expected social protocols are not being honored. I get so stuck (in that autist type of way) and we both end up miserable.

So yeah I wish he could hear what you're saying.

If he would just set all that aside and be open and honest etc then I could more easily navigate it in a way that is more helpful to him. Say "gosh I want to apologize but my shame is yelling in my ear" and I can work with you. Make it my fault and we have a second problem now. I have become a person that cannot effectively support him because I get so angry at the injustice of him responding this way. I know where it is coming from but it's Not Fair(tm).

 

[yogabanana]

When you are more honest about your feelings, l am much quicker to be onboard for what you can and can't accept.

Same! You said it much better than I did.

 

[Aspychata]

This is an excellent observation. I think somebody l liked, closed up like a fan when l started asking things, he felt it was going straight to blame/shame land. But it wasn't. It was just a easy defense route for him to close down, push off, and later criticize me. So yes, this does happen. But l also saw a lot of honesty, a lot of progress, a lot more self-acceptance of himself. He blossomed. But l felt bad and then confused. Lol.

When you are more honest about your feelings, l am much quicker to be onboard for what you can and can't accept.

This was the Virgo guy.

 

[yogabanana]

This was the Virgo guy.

I can see that.

 

[Hypnalis]

@yogabanana

I think this would be a good point for you to establish and write down your objective(s).
I can help restructure a draft, but I won't add content.

Note that I'm not prepared to offer "strategic" advice at all. If you and hubby were 22 y.o. and had no kids I might jump on the "maybe it's over" bandwagon.

But you have a child together.

For me, that means "nukes" are off the table except in the most extreme cases. Given that, this isn't "para bellum".
Excluding any "Irish stand down" phase, the most that should be planned for is separation, preferably temporary.

So what your setting up for is a negotiated solution, and the techniques are (thankfully) different.

Assuming your SOC writing style matches (more-or-less) how you think, some (maybe 25%) of the problem you're dancing around is definitely you. And you still have to take the initiative, which is definitely unfair.
Either way, you need structure, and your natural modes of thinking and/or working don't seem to be structured, so it won't be fun, and you may need a helping hand.

BTW - I remembered part of the thread I wanted examples from, and I think I can recreate what I need. See my next post.

 

[Hypnalis]

@yogabanana

Context; this is intended to show two simple techniques so you have examples of kind of methods I've described in some of my earlier posts.
I have to provide some background, but the techniques themselves are straightforward anti-troll techniques, and quite brief.

Background: We had a probable (90%) troll here a little while ago. He asked for our collective judgement on whether he is an Aspie or a Narcissist. My nickname for him: PsychoTroll (PT) ...
... because he actually presented as a barely sub-clinical psychopath. He isn't smart though - it could literally have been an idiot mistake /lol.

Amusingly enough his first 1 or 2 posts included a distinctively NT-style "flex", so he gave himself away (to me at least) immediately.

My first "probe" was to point out that his question is a "false dilemma", and he gave a standard troll answer. I provided some wikipedia links then or soon after, to the Dark Triad, and maybe to "Cluster-B", so the "battle lines" were drawn up. And of course he can't afford to ignore me, because now he knows I may be able to poison the thread against him.

So here are two routine troll-to-human exchanges which are the examples I've chosen. All text is approximated/recreated - the thread seems to have been deleted (good thing too - this guy was 100% an AH)

1. Timewaster attack.

Me: I told him that IMO he's a Psychopath (he was faking it, but moderately well up to that point)
PT: Please explain why you reached that conclusion

This is a "timewaster" deflection. Not unlike the "argue with the results of some dimwit's google searches" case.
The person making the attack wants a detailed answer, but they don't deserve one.

Me: I won't do your research for you. I provided some links above. Read them.

(BTW this is a standard answer - I don't have a file to cut/paste from, but I should- I've used this a lot).

Tech details:
* My setup (links earlier) is routine - it's a passive defense (wall/defensive ditch) in preparation for the active defense later.
* The attack can be delivered by an idiot. You have to be able to recognize it.
* Due to the setup, I don't have to think to apply my active defense. Anyone can do this without thinking.
* It's tight - the troll has no easy countermeasure. And if he tries I'll absolutely introduce him to "pig wrestling" which always fun

2. Withdraw / redirect

Later he'd over-committed (said some stuff that was hard to defend - I forget the details)

Me (IIRC): some passive-aggressive anti-troll insult (there are options where the usual range of responses requires them to expose that they are trolls)
PT (very approximate - it felt like a prepared cut/paste response): Lets take a step back, review the situation, and continue the discussion.

This one is a tactical withdrawal. He wants a full reset, seeking to erase any earlier problems (from his point of view).

Me: Nice deflection. You over-committed, and now you want to reset the discussion.
I'm not going to help you fix your mistakes.

Tech details
* Obviously I don't want a reset. But the request was delivered politely, so the same kind of blocking move I used in (1) isn't appropriate
* I still blocked (I didn't want him to achieve what he asked for)
* The response is fighting fire with fire in a way. He's working the meta-discussion, so I responded within the same context. But I got to slip in a couple of sharp criticisms at the same time

So back to the point of the examples:

My responses are designed to be hard to deflect; somewhat aggressive (each is loaded with an indirect criticism that, if he dealt with them, would disrupt his main message), and they are "closed" - difficult to respond to at all.

So they're not quite what you'd use to make your husband pay attention, but this is the kind of thing I was talking about a few posts ago. Short, focused, direct, active, integrated defense, difficult/impossible to counter without the targets overall position being weakened.

If you decide to tell your husband what you need from him, and what he must do to step up, you'll be looking for this kind of phrasing and structure as part of your preparation.

Note that you don't have to follow my specific approach or techniques. I used to hunt trolls for fun, so for me it's a good place for example techniques. But I definitely think it would benefit you to work on your techniques.

 

[Tom]

There is too much here to really catch up on. Actually anything over a few sentences is very taxing mentally. But I have at least caught the drift of your dilema. I think it is a pretty common situation as I have heard it expressed many times and have experienced a version of it in my own marriage. It seems to usually be in this configuration too as far as the man and woman go. So I am going to guess it has something to do with male-female differences as well as autistic factors.

I do believe working thru it requires the man to go thru a pretty big shift in thought and attitude. But it is very hard for people to change. Generating it from the outside is also very difficult and often futile until the person themselves is ready to do it. It's like trying to get someone to quit smoking. It's probably not going to happen till the person has that switch flip in their own head and now is internally motivated. Unfortunately, it is often only the dramatic shock of the relationship ending that finally flips the switch, when of course it's too late.

I really don't have any good suggestions for you other then to try and not repeat strategies that you have tried already and didn't work, but instead try new approaches.

I could give the man more advice, as I can relate to that position more. But if I could tell him just one thing it would be that once upon a time there was a girl you loved and would have done anything for. And she is still there right in front of you. Now wake up you idiot and be that way again before you lose her.

 

[yogabanana]

There is too much here to really catch up on. Actually anything over a few sentences is very taxing mentally. But I have at least caught the drift of your dilema. I think it is a pretty common situation as I have heard it expressed many times and have experienced a version of it in my own marriage. It seems to usually be in this configuration too as far as the man and woman go. So I am going to guess it has something to do with male-female differences as well as autistic factors.

I do believe working thru it requires the man to go thru a pretty big shift in thought and attitude. But it is very hard for people to change. Generating it from the outside is also very difficult and often futile until the person themselves is ready to do it. It's like trying to get someone to quit smoking. It's probably not going to happen till the person has that switch flip in their own head and now is internally motivated. Unfortunately, it is often only the dramatic shock of the relationship ending that finally flips the switch, when of course it's too late.

I really don't have any good suggestions for you other then to try and not repeat strategies that you have tried already and didn't work, but instead try new approaches.

I could give the man more advice, as I can relate to that position more. But if I could tell him just one thing it would be that once upon a time there was a girl you loved and would have done anything for. And she is still there right in front of you. Now wake up you idiot and be that way again before you lose her.

Thank you. I was suggested to send him this thread so if you have more advice for him, hopefully he would actually see it.

I agree with you that I need to stop trying to use strategies that I've already tried. It's difficult as we both tend to fluctuate in functioning, level of engagement etc so that neither of us respond to stimuli as consistency as either of us believe we do.

 

[yogabanana]

@yogabanana

Context; this is intended to show two simple techniques so you have examples of kind of methods I've described in some of my earlier posts.
I have to provide some background, but the techniques themselves are straightforward anti-troll techniques, and quite brief.

Background: We had a probable (90%) troll here a little while ago. He asked for our collective judgement on whether he is an Aspie or a Narcissist. My nickname for him: PsychoTroll (PT) ...
... because he actually presented as a barely sub-clinical psychopath. He isn't smart though - it could literally have been an idiot mistake /lol.

Amusingly enough his first 1 or 2 posts included a distinctively NT-style "flex", so he gave himself away (to me at least) immediately.

My first "probe" was to point out that his question is a "false dilemma", and he gave a standard troll answer. I provided some wikipedia links then or soon after, to the Dark Triad, and maybe to "Cluster-B", so the "battle lines" were drawn up. And of course he can't afford to ignore me, because now he knows I may be able to poison the thread against him.

So here are two routine troll-to-human exchanges which are the examples I've chosen. All text is approximated/recreated - the thread seems to have been deleted (good thing too - this guy was 100% an AH)

1. Timewaster attack.

Me: I told him that IMO he's a Psychopath (he was faking it, but moderately well up to that point)
PT: Please explain why you reached that conclusion

This is a "timewaster" deflection. Not unlike the "argue with the results of some dimwit's google searches" case.
The person making the attack wants a detailed answer, but they don't deserve one.

Me: I won't do your research for you. I provided some links above. Read them.

(BTW this is a standard answer - I don't have a file to cut/paste from, but I should- I've used this a lot).

Tech details:
* My setup (links earlier) is routine - it's a passive defense (wall/defensive ditch) in preparation for the active defense later.
* The attack can be delivered by an idiot. You have to be able to recognize it.
* Due to the setup, I don't have to think to apply my active defense. Anyone can do this without thinking.
* It's tight - the troll has no easy countermeasure. And if he tries I'll absolutely introduce him to "pig wrestling" which always fun

2. Withdraw / redirect

Later he'd over-committed (said some stuff that was hard to defend - I forget the details)

Me (IIRC): some passive-aggressive anti-troll insult (there are options where the usual range of responses requires them to expose that they are trolls)
PT (very approximate - it felt like a prepared cut/paste response): Lets take a step back, review the situation, and continue the discussion.

This one is a tactical withdrawal. He wants a full reset, seeking to erase any earlier problems (from his point of view).

Me: Nice deflection. You over-committed, and now you want to reset the discussion.
I'm not going to help you fix your mistakes.

Tech details
* Obviously I don't want a reset. But the request was delivered politely, so the same kind of blocking move I used in (1) isn't appropriate
* I still blocked (I didn't want him to achieve what he asked for)
* The response is fighting fire with fire in a way. He's working the meta-discussion, so I responded within the same context. But I got to slip in a couple of sharp criticisms at the same time

So back to the point of the examples:

My responses are designed to be hard to deflect; somewhat aggressive (each is loaded with an indirect criticism that, if he dealt with them, would disrupt his main message), and they are "closed" - difficult to respond to at all.

So they're not quite what you'd use to make your husband pay attention, but this is the kind of thing I was talking about a few posts ago. Short, focused, direct, active, integrated defense, difficult/impossible to counter without the targets overall position being weakened.

If you decide to tell your husband what you need from him, and what he must do to step up, you'll be looking for this kind of phrasing and structure as part of your preparation.

Note that you don't have to follow my specific approach or techniques. I used to hunt trolls for fun, so for me it's a good place for example techniques. But I definitely think it would benefit you to work on your techniques.

Thank you. Concrete examples are helpful.
I have to put some thought into how to convert my energy from long winded ranting to empowered judo chop mode.

 

[Hypnalis]

@yogabanana

The first thing you need to do is set your objectives.
This is essential anyway, but it will also reduce the amount of time and effort needed to tune your message and communication techniques. For reference, what I use here took decades of my adult life to figure out.

Also a "PS" to what I originally said:
Me: "I think this would be a good point for you to establish and write down your objective(s)".

Operations security - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If your husband knows you use this site, it's too late of course.

If not, don't share this information with anyone until it's complete. That probably means nothing written or recorded (phone, PC) in your shared dwelling. Ditto sharing with friends and family (both sides). During this first stage, don't trust anyone.

Once you have your objectives written clearly and concisely:
(a) You won't need them in writing (you'll have no trouble remembering
(b) You'll be able to decide who to share them with. The first person might even be your husband - when you know exactly what you want, it may be things you've already told him.

Until then, having someone close "just trying to help" could be very disruptive.


BTW
* I like the "judo-chop" metaphor
* Try using unembellished polite closed statements immediately. People don't mind being ordered about if it's reasonable and delivered politely. (a "reverse-Karen" if you like

 

[yogabanana]

@yogabanana

The first thing you need to do is set your objectives.
This is essential anyway, but it will also reduce the amount of time and effort needed to tune your message and communication techniques. For reference, what I use here took decades of my adult life to figure out.

Also a "PS" to what I originally said:
Me: "I think this would be a good point for you to establish and write down your objective(s)".

Operations security - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If your husband knows you use this site, it's too late of course.

If not, don't share this information with anyone until it's complete. That probably means nothing written or recorded (phone, PC) in your shared dwelling. Ditto sharing with friends and family (both sides). During this first stage, don't trust anyone.

Once you have your objectives written clearly and concisely:
(a) You won't need them in writing (you'll have no trouble remembering
(b) You'll be able to decide who to share them with. The first person might even be your husband - when you know exactly what you want, it may be things you've already told him.

Until then, having someone close "just trying to help" could be very disruptive.


BTW
* I like the "judo-chop" metaphor
* Try using unembellished polite closed statements immediately. People don't mind being ordered about if it's reasonable and delivered politely. (a "reverse-Karen" if you like

Why is it "too late" to set objectives if he knows I'm using this site? I'm not following that part.