Incredibly upset by this article

[Kalinychta]

It's well known that aspies often end up with partners that have their own serious mental health issues. The vile, disgusting hatred in the comments section makes me think that's what is going on there.

Also I think that the traits that attract people to us in the first place oftentimes end up being the ones that they eventually want to tame.

 

[Au Naturel]

https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/ma...autism-why-women-who-leave-lose-twice-0420164

I am really upset by this article on so many levels. I don't get upset easily but I'm shaking and feel like throwing up. As upsetting as the article itself is, the comments that come after are even more upsetting. I can't believe this was written by a counselor, and that the counselor specializes in NT-ASD relationship counseling.

I'm very lonely and want a relationship, but if this is even half true everyone is just better off if I'm alone.

The thing that bothers me most is how the counselor apparently is diagnosing people with ASD without even meeting them, and doesn't appear to have the credentials to even diagnose someone in person.

Since getting divorced, I have gotten close to two other divorced women (it didn't work out with either of them) and both of them told me that their counselors had told them that their ex-husbands were narcissists.

Everyone that has a failed relationship and goes to counseling seems to come to the conclusion that their ex has some mental illness and that it's all their ex's fault. My hope here is that this is the case with the number of disgusting comments on that article - people that have been hurt in a relationship, feel the need to blame everything on their ex and have used asd as the scapegoat.

The article is based on suppositions supported by anecdotes and the author's personal biases. Since mixed couples who do not have problems never go to see her, they don't get counted. Perfect example of selection bias.

And in this current world, it is fashionable always to blame the guy. Since women are such an oppressed gender, it can never be even partly their "fault." Not that fault or blame are at all useful concepts in therapy. People are who they are and placing blame is itself a mental health problem.

It is what it is and getting upset is counterproductive.

 

[Neri]

The article is based on suppositions supported by anecdotes and the author's personal biases. Since mixed couples who do not have problems never go to see her, they don't get counted. Perfect example of selection bias.

And in this current world, it is fashionable always to blame the guy. Since women are such an oppressed gender, it can never be even partly their "fault." Not that fault or blame are at all useful concepts in therapy. People are who they are and placing blame is itself a mental health problem.

It is what it is and getting upset is counterproductive.

"Counterproductive" is a term I use on a regular basis. I wonder if that is a common Aspie trope?

 

[lovely_darlingprettybaby]

You can get offended by things.
Even for me, I started counselling and people often say this is autistic
But I am like no this does not seem autistic to me but human.
So I hate when people say a human experience that neurotypicals can experience is autistic.
However I wonder if I am actually autistic but i have lots of talents so I may be.
But also there may be very talented people out there and probably are who are not autistic.
I hate stereotypes like that.
And also I hate when people only see you as autistic or adhd instead of human.
So essentially you may be those things but they may not define you. I am Laura first and for me if I am those things that are only part of me and not my whole definition. And that is not supposed to say I am ashamed of those things if I were them. Same with talents, I am not just a talented lady I do not like being defined by those things.
Because I have my own personality and light.
So it is tricky when people think so differently in terms of the way they like to be and what offends them.
Often it does not offend me but i think others just make me think that I am wrong for thinking and feeling the way I do and essentially a lot I hate talking about ways of thinking, feeling and views because it gets exhausting and it can be hard to relate to someone else's if it is wildly different.
that is why it is good to just be around those who love you for you. Who see eye to eye or at least respect your views and you do not need to constantly express them.

 

[Kalinychta]

And in this current world, it is fashionable always to blame the guy. Since women are such an oppressed gender, it can never be even partly their "fault."

This isn’t actually true in the real world, though. In the mainstream media and social media worlds - yeah, we’re supposed to believe it. But actual everyday life is very, very different. There aren’t many men I know who I feel sorry for, but I know a hell of a lot of women whose place I’m so glad I’m not in. This article is blatant bigotry against autistic men specifically.

 

[Hypnalis]

I want to thank everyone for responding. My journey towards a diagnosis at the age of 46 has made me question everything about my past. I feel like I'm gaslighting myself. Reading this made me wonder if this was me and I just didn't know it... the responses have been reassuring.

Here's a positive perspective for you. BTW It may not look positive at first, but it is.

One of the things I do to figure out a certain kind of "NT visitor" here (when it's clearly true, as it often is) is tell them something obvious but telling:
"You don't understand the NT SO/spouse/Life Partner you're describing".
If they don't understand that after reading it, or at least try to, they're not worth taking seriously.

NTs, even NTs who genuinely like one of us, have great difficulty truly understanding how we think.
This isn't a problem in general - people adjust. But sometimes it can be an issue.

This connects directly to something about marriage which everyone knows, but few link to NT/ND relationships:

Women expect their husband to change; husbands want their wives to stay the same.

We're not talking a small change. Evolution has shaped this. Pair-bonding is about children, and that means household stability until the youngest child is self-sufficient. This requires a larger change in male behavior (such as reduced risk-taking) than female behavior. But it has consequences in other areas.

You may have been affected by this in the past.

Some expect Aspies to change their fundamental nature. Bur we can't.
Those people that can't (or won't) work with us are quite likely to blame us later for not changing something we cannot change.

This is not our fault. It can be solved by clear communication.
It will never be solved if there's an undercurrent of "dominance gaming" rather than a search for balance in an equal relationship.

Take a look at @Jumpinbare 's post #6.

 

[zaphod]

I have been working on a response in the comment section for that article. Any thoughts before I post? I tend to get too wordy/overexplain so it might be too wordy. Here it is:

This is a very one-sided and unfairly written article. I feel sorry for any man that has gone through couples counseling with the author.
1. In the post script, the author claims that this is a composite description of the NT woman and ASD man.

Here are the negative "composite" description of the ASD Man:
- incapable of being involved emotionally and practically
- "Abuse"(r)
- unsettled and uncomfortable that his wife being well-regarded, confident and kind
- views his wife as a novelty
- manipulative
- anxious
- inflexible
- self involved, aloof, unable to focus on her
- stonewalling
- doesnt care about the kids (i.e. doesn't think that the kids should have one special day a year)
- lazy (won't help in any way with the party, made his wife manage everything throughout the marriage)
- constantly critisizes his wife

Many of the negative traits in this "composite" actually have a NEGATIVE zero association with autism. "Abuse"? Upset that his wife is kind and well-regarded? "Manipulative"? Hypercrital?
Others play into dangerous stereotypes that the author should know to be careful with. For example, to say that your "composite" autistic man is incapable of being involved emotionally and practically is completely irresponsible, particularly for a therapist who should know the complexities around issues.

Meanwhile, there are a small number of negative terms used to describe the NT Woman, but each and every time it is made abundently clear that the negativity is in fact the autistic man's fault. Not hers.

2. The author seems to be encouraging unqualified people to diagnose others with ASD. What exactly is an undiagnosed ASD man? Undiagnosed according to who? A "qualified" counselor? The wife? The author, who incidently isn't qualified to make this diagnosis on her own patients, let alone someone she has never met. Everyone and their dog thinks their ex of being undiagnosed this or that, but that does not make it true.

3. Much of the story focuses on parental alienation of the mother after divorce, while pointing the finger directly at the ASD father's treatment of the mother.
- ASD traits are strongly genetic
- People with ASD tend to have a much easier time making connections with each other than with NT people.
- The mom in this story has already shown that she finds ASD traits intolerable, soul-crushing, sanity-destroying.
- ASD men are also very likely to attract women with their own mental health issues (i.e. narcisists)
- If parental alienation after the mother leaves the father, is it really because dad didn't make more of an effort on mom's birthday?

4. The comments here are completely disgusting. Everything from advocating cheating if your husband has ASD to genocide of ASD men to people being overjoyed at the death of their ASD husband... and it goes on and on. Many of comments are conflating narcissistic or other personailty disorders with autism. For example, "gaslighting" is all over the comments, which would be extremely difficult for someone with ASD. Gaslighting is actually difficult for most people with ASD. The author clearly reads through the comments section but makes no attempt to correct these mischaracterizations or flag/remove disgusting comments that would be triggering to a population with such a high suicide rate. Instead she just promotes her business (therapy)

This is a horrible 1-sided and inaccurate article that should be removed immediately. The author should be ashamed of herself. I feel sorry for anyone with ASD that has been counseled by here.

 

[Judge]

The author is probably a troll. If she is actually a real therapist, her license should be ixnayed, and she should be run out of town.

Or in the case of so many blatantly prejudiced people against those who are autistic, it may simply be someone lashing out over autistic males based either on their own failed relationship with an autistic man, or someone close to them with the same failure. Better known as "sour grapes" going much further than a conversation, but put to words online to spread their ire.

Then again, even if her alleged qualifications exist, do they really amount to what a neurologist, psychiatrist or neuroscientist understands about autism?

Such articles remain upsetting to most of us, yet it's not the first- or the last time we'll see them, which may be influenced by "other motivations" which might involve a very personal sense of payback and little else.

 

[Misty Avich]

I have been working on a response in the comment section for that article. Any thoughts before I post? I tend to get too wordy/overexplain so it might be too wordy. Here it is:

This is a very one-sided and unfairly written article. I feel sorry for any man that has gone through couples counseling with the author.
1. In the post script, the author claims that this is a composite description of the NT woman and ASD man.

Here are the negative "composite" description of the ASD Man:
- incapable of being involved emotionally and practically
- "Abuse"(r)
- unsettled and uncomfortable that his wife being well-regarded, confident and kind
- views his wife as a novelty
- manipulative
- anxious
- inflexible
- self involved, aloof, unable to focus on her
- stonewalling
- doesnt care about the kids (i.e. doesn't think that the kids should have one special day a year)
- lazy (won't help in any way with the party, made his wife manage everything throughout the marriage)
- constantly critisizes his wife

Many of the negative traits in this "composite" actually have a NEGATIVE zero association with autism. "Abuse"? Upset that his wife is kind and well-regarded? "Manipulative"? Hypercrital?
Others play into dangerous stereotypes that the author should know to be careful with. For example, to say that your "composite" autistic man is incapable of being involved emotionally and practically is completely irresponsible, particularly for a therapist who should know the complexities around issues.

Meanwhile, there are a small number of negative terms used to describe the NT Woman, but each and every time it is made abundently clear that the negativity is in fact the autistic man's fault. Not hers.

2. The author seems to be encouraging unqualified people to diagnose others with ASD. What exactly is an undiagnosed ASD man? Undiagnosed according to who? A "qualified" counselor? The wife? The author, who incidently isn't qualified to make this diagnosis on her own patients, let alone someone she has never met. Everyone and their dog thinks their ex of being undiagnosed this or that, but that does not make it true.

3. Much of the story focuses on parental alienation of the mother after divorce, while pointing the finger directly at the ASD father's treatment of the mother.
- ASD traits are strongly genetic
- People with ASD tend to have a much easier time making connections with each other than with NT people.
- The mom in this story has already shown that she finds ASD traits intolerable, soul-crushing, sanity-destroying.
- ASD men are also very likely to attract women with their own mental health issues (i.e. narcisists)
- If parental alienation after the mother leaves the father, is it really because dad didn't make more of an effort on mom's birthday?

4. The comments here are completely disgusting. Everything from advocating cheating if your husband has ASD to genocide of ASD men to people being overjoyed at the death of their ASD husband... and it goes on and on. Many of comments are conflating narcissistic or other personailty disorders with autism. For example, "gaslighting" is all over the comments, which would be extremely difficult for someone with ASD. Gaslighting is actually difficult for most people with ASD. The author clearly reads through the comments section but makes no attempt to correct these mischaracterizations or flag/remove disgusting comments that would be triggering to a population with such a high suicide rate. Instead she just promotes her business (therapy)

This is a horrible 1-sided and inaccurate article that should be removed immediately. The author should be ashamed of herself. I feel sorry for anyone with ASD that has been counseled by here.

I'm so glad you and others here have an interest in standing up to autism bias, instead of just "ignoring it" like we're often advised to do. Nothing gets done when people ignore such bias and prejudice made against them, especially if it's not even true.
I think your response is good.


Then people wonder why some autistics hate themselves and their autism.

 

[Judge]

I'm so glad you and others here have an interest in standing up to autism bias, instead of just "ignoring it" like we're often advised to do. Nothing gets done when people ignore such bias and prejudice made against them, especially if it's not even true.
I think your response is good.


Then people wonder why some autistics hate themselves and their autism.

There is some good news in all this. Particularly if you see how our dissent from this website is placed so closely to the original article regarding search engines. At least that was my experience with Duck Duck Go Go.

Maybe in the end this is the best we can do. To be heard, even though it's unlikely such prejudice will cease. It was indeed gratifying to see these responses so physically close to the original article. At least this was the case yesterday.

 

[Hypnalis]

@zaphod

I don't have time to go through all of your draft myself, but I suggest making it a bit stronger in tone.
I'd certainly be weaving in things like "obvious anti-ASD prejudice" and the like.

Also make these two (actually three) points sometimes:
* Aspies love their children at least as much as NTs.
* And we generally get on very well with kids - not least because we are direct and clear when we communicate with them. Children prefer our honesty and fairness.

The third point is the one about lies and arbitrary decisions/instructions backed by a "rationale" that's made up on the spot.
It's true, and also raises the idea of false narratives. Such as the one presented in the article.

Personally I'd also include the aspect I included in an earlier post: that vindictive, greedy women looking for leverage in divorce court buy this kind of narrative from therapists like this one. But I'm not the least bit afraid of conflict

Note that I wouldn't go with exactly that text - but I would make sure the message was there and clear.

The reason for not being too direct is that when you're going after someone like this, you avoid anything that makes them or a sympathetic party "push back" automatically. They'll just make up a convenient self-justifying lie on the spot, and they'll believe it (denial-driven delusion is a powerful thing, and it's specially strong in liars).

 

[zaphod]

Thanks for the feedback. I posted the comment.

 

[zaphod]

Lol... I'm guessing my comment broke the terms of service or the author had it removed. Thought it was there after posting it originally.

Tried posting it again and it said "comment deleted" (duplicate comment not allowed)... but it's not there.

I was wondering why every single comment out of hundreds bashed ASD men... guess I have my answer.

 

[Judge]

Lol... I'm guessing my comment broke the terms of service or the author had it removed. Thought it was there after posting it originally.

Tried posting it again and it said "comment deleted" (duplicate comment not allowed)... but it's not there.

I was wondering why every single comment out of hundreds bashed ASD men... guess I have my answer.

At least they can't delete the link to this thread that shows up in search engines.

So we will be heard!

 

[Misty Avich]

They probably deleted your comment because the rules on that site is to be bigoted against autistic guys.

I know it's exactly the same entitled cow who wrote the heartlessaspergers blog which got taken down. She needs to be...can I mention violence on AF?

 

[zaphod]

Perhaps her google reviews is a more appropriate place to leave an opinion.

Sarah Swenson - Google Search

 

[Hypnalis]

I don't personally care much about this, but there's sure to be a way to communicate about this person, or otherwise attract her attention.

Probably no easy way though..

I read the section about the crushing effect of not remembering someone's birthday. Which is quite amusing to someone who pays little attention to their own birthday

Her conclusion is that it's a perfect example of something that will crush an innocent NT wife spirit. Rather the obvious: the wife is insecure, and needs constant reassurance that the relationship is solid.

That's why the other party (husband) "has to" remember and do something without being prompted.
You'd think a therapist would remember that guys get nothing on Valentines day or Father's day - but the reason for that is uncomfortable of course /lol. The point is if we're not worth it, why are our wives? And if there's a reason, surely a professional "ASD expert" therapist has some useful knowledge and insight.-

Anyway if you really care, deconstruct the article, package up some persuasive criticisms, share it with her and the site she's a supposed expert for, and tell them that if they won't at least talk to you, you'll take it to the appropriate professional organization.

I wouldn't do it myself though.

Misattributed to Voltaire:
"To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

BTW this seems to be "hate speech" too these days: wikiquotes says "Commonly repeated by far-right politicians.", which is well on the way to putting the idea into the "illegal criticism" category /lol.

FWIW I think it would be possible to get some traction about this. But quite difficult in a gynocentric world.

If you have nothing better to do, find and aim for the relevant professional society, with the person and the organization behind that web site as intermediate targets where you don't expect any effect, but must make a pro forma attempt on them in order to reach the real target.

Primary leverage is that the article unfairly and strongly negative about ASD, and likely to break up marriages that are under tension due to poor communication and other resolvable issues.

E.g. there are other ways to provide reassurance to someone insecure than "following the NT rules".
A supposed ASD specialist should know them and teach them.
Which makes her choice of example unprofessional inappropriate for a publicly available article like that.

Don't do it unless you enjoy the process though - it will take 100+ hours at least.

 

[Au Naturel]

"Counterproductive" is a term I use on a regular basis. I wonder if that is a common Aspie trope?

It is a common word used by anyone who wants to accomplish something but has to field suggestions from people who don't understand the situation. It is also a sign of a logical mindset as opposed to running with emotions. The word doesn't come with a lot of strong emotional baggage. It is a word Spock would use, not one McCoy would use.

 

[Mary Terry]

Yes but homosexuals, non-whites and transpeople are all protected groups, people with neurological disorders should be too.

By the way I think almost all the comments in the article are written by the cow who wrote the article, as the writing style seems very similar in almost every comment, and honestly there can't be that many women experiencing such abuse from an autistic husband.
Also, if her husband wasn't diagnosed, why did she just assume autism? I mean, how does she know he's not just a psychopath? Admittedly I didn't really read the whole article, but to me it sounds like either he is a psychopath or she is just an entitled woman behaving like a spoilt child.

Disabled people are a protected group. Autism is a disability according to the laws of the USA.

But don't confuse the US Constitutional First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech from governmental constraints with whatever is going on at that website and the comments thereto.

 

[Misty Avich]

Disabled people are a protected group. Autism is a disability according to the laws of the USA.

But don't confuse the US Constitutional First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech from governmental constraints with whatever is going on at that website and the comments thereto.

Yes but if the site were saying the same about a certain race or something then it would have been taken down the second it was out up there, or at least not been allowed to be discussed here.