What, in your view, is God about?

[Suzanne]

I am a christian and read the bible every single day and it is my faith in Him, that helps me with being an apsie.

Our Creator is a spirit and made in His image, means: personalty; for as a spirit, we cannot look like Him.

I could say so much more, but will wait to see what happens with this answer, if anything?

 

[Suzanne]

Sometimes this life seems like it's a big game and we're just the pawns. And other times I think this life is purgatory (or hell) and what we do here really does count - a lot. I don't believe we are judged until the "Big Day" and we always have a chance to be forgiven while we are here alive on earth. I believe God is the Big Kahuna and then there's His son Jesus and the Holy Spirit - so the Big Three. I mainly talk to Jesus since I figure God has a lot going on and if Jesus can't help me then He'll summon the Big Kahuna. Gotta tell you, I haven't talked to Jesus more than I have the last 3 months. And I actually just talk to Him like I'd be talking to any of you. I think we all have been given free will either to want God in our lives or not - He will accept us back at any time should we turn away from Him then change our minds (I believe). God doesn't want to force us into loving Him because then that wouldn't be real love. We have to make a choice to want him in our lives or not.

This life certainly does feel like a living hell, doesn't it? But the fact is that hell is just the grave of mankind ie death. For you see, we do not have a soul, but ARE a soul.

At great risk, I am giving you this website that will answer all your questions: Jehovah’s Witnesses—Official Website: jw.org

 

[Nadador]

...(edit) Even though I know time and space are in some way infinite, and within that understanding of infinity, anything is possible, it does appear too ordered to be completely up to chance...(edit)

I've always struggled with the thinking that things "appear too ordered to be completely up to chance". It would seem to me that a degree of order is necessary for most anything to exist, never mind in multiples or variations. Why that necessarily indicates a creator escapes me...even as I feel there likely is one, in some form. Should we assume that without intelligent design, there could only be nothing, or nothing of coherent structure? Or is the argument in the word "too"?

They certainly like to think they are still,

You wrote this in response to Angela's question about the Jews as the Chosen People. Aside from the Orthodox minority [less than 2 million, total], I've found Jews to be uncommonly accepting of other religions, as a group, and of the general opinion that anyone respectful of universal ethical principles has equal access to Heaven and God's favour.

Not sure of the observations on which you've based your opinion, but what you may perceive as a sense of superiority is actually just a certain tendency to keep to their own, which is rather vital to their survival. Judaism has but 14 million adherents, about half of whom consider themselves as "secular". In the West, more assimilated Jewish populations are hemorrhaging members to mixed marriages, in which children aren't raised in the faith. In the East, they still face a degree of persecution. These conditions would make me keep to my own, too.

Not trying to start a debate, and I'm mindful of wyverary's caution. Just wanted to offer some thoughts for peaceable consideration.

 

[On the Inside]

I've always struggled with the thinking that things "appear too ordered to be completely up to chance". It would seem to me that a degree of order is necessary for most anything to exist, never mind in multiples or variations. Why that necessarily indicates a creator escapes me...even as I feel there likely is one, in some form. Should we assume that without intelligent design, there could only be nothing, or nothing of coherent structure? Or is the argument in the word "too"?

This refers back to my earlier post about discussing god and discussing physics as being the same thing. I am science/empirically based in my thinking. I am also very interested in the history of human thought on origins, such fascinating stories. I am human enough not to trample over anyone else's beliefs, and feel I can hold more than one thought on the subject without going mad.

Mostly I'm comfortable with the thought that it will all be revealed in the end, and/or it won't make any difference. I will simply try to learn what I can with the time and attention I can give, and treat others with respect and interest.

 

[apsie]

You lot are giving me much to think about and much to reconsider.

If the universe was perfect, nothing could change. Imperfection, or chance if you'll entertain the idea - is how life can be.
Obviously, I'm heavily inspired by chaos theory and quantum physics atm. I'm in a good mood.
Maybe "god's nature" can be found in chance?

Are we made in God's image? Not likely / Very unlikely
Where is God? I'm not convinced he "Is". If, then he just is. Where, would have no vallue or meaning.
Of what is God made? Whatever
Does God care about God's creations? I don't think "care" fits
At what level of interest? Why would there be a scale?
Does God judge us? Doubtfull
What about? -
Does it play favourites? Doubtfull
Is it the gatekeeper of the eternal, just a keeper [sans gate duty], or merely a resident? If, then it seems likely god is neither in concept.
Are we part of it, or separate? If, then probably part.
How can we communicate with it? I don't think we can as humans, if.
Should we? If we choose to, without neglecting the almost certain.
How can we ever know any of this? By thinking
Should we? Yes, I think so. (Couldn't resist)

If, I don't think god created with specific purpose. To me, what's referred to as intelligent design seems very inadequate and equally limited.

You wrote this in response to Angela's question about the Jews as the Chosen People. Aside from the Orthodox minority [less than 2 million, total], I've found Jews to be uncommonly accepting of other religions, as a group, and of the general opinion that anyone respectful of universal ethical principles has equal access to Heaven and God's favour.

A quote I liked by a rabbi:
"One does not have to believe in God to be Jewish, one has to believe in being Jewish."

With much respect (and some blue),
Tom.

 

[Maelstrom]

[QUOTE="apsie, Obviously, I'm heavily inspired by chaos theory and quantum physics atm. I'm in a good mood.
Maybe "god's nature" can be found in chance? [/QUOTE]

HI To find a answer, you first must know how to ask the right question.
If all the universe is interconnected by the physical laws of mater, then how can the concept of chaos be true, as there is always a physical action that will be slightly more probable than another. And short term laws of selection or survival are not the same as long term laws of selection or survival. In the short term, for a predator, big teeth, strength, and size make it supreme. Over the long term it can eat it's self out of house and home and starve, while a adaptable little raccoon gets by scrounging for frogs, snails, rats, whatever. So over the long term adaptability, intelligence, and cooperative survival skills are dominant over strength or ferocity. If you want to understand what nature a long term, (long lived), life form would have, then you would need to examine the natural traits needed to survive hidden long term dangers that may not be readily evident in our short term existence on earth.

 

[IContainMultitudes]

Let's please stay away from posts that come across as attacks against other religious communities.

 

[zurb]

I've always struggled with the thinking that things "appear too ordered to be completely up to chance". It would seem to me that a degree of order is necessary for most anything to exist, never mind in multiples or variations. Why that necessarily indicates a creator escapes me...even as I feel there likely is one, in some form. Should we assume that without intelligent design, there could only be nothing, or nothing of coherent structure? Or is the argument in the word "too"?

Because the second law of thermodynamics excludes the possibility of it happening by chance. Even those who don't know this 'law' and think it's just logical are really basing their argument on their perceived flow of entropy. This law of course requires the universe to be a closed system, but as soon as one believes in a Judaeo/Christian style God, it is no longer a closed system (and yes, I do know Atheists have their own reasoning for why the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply here).

Edited: changed 'principle' to 'law' as that's how it's usually referred to.

 

[pushpin]

Because the second principle of thermodynamics excludes the possibility of it happening by chance. Even those who don't know this principle and think it's just logical are really basing their argument on their perceived flow of entropy. This principle of course requires the universe to be a closed system, but as soon as one believes in a Judaeo/Christian style God, it is no longer a closed system (and yes, I do know Atheists have their own reasoning for why the second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply here).

Can you explain this? (Curiousity here, not questioning your point, just would like to know more )

 

[zurb]

Can you explain this? (Curiousity here, not questioning your point, just would like to know more )

Entropy is a measure of disorder in a system. In a closed system, entropy always flows towards greater disorder. Imagine a movie of a girl on a swing, back and forth, back and forth. You don't know if it is being played forward or backward until she drops something. If the object flies from the ground to her hand, you know it is playing backwards because you understand the principle of entropy.
So if the 'clock' is slowly winding down, someone outside the system must have wound it up. In a closed system, a clock can't wind itself. That would be a perpetual motion device.
Edit: Christians of course believe God didn't just wind the system up, but continues to be involved. The more significant events are often called miracles by believers. One of the more famous times is remembered in five days time.

 

[epath13]

I am a christian and read the bible every single day and it is my faith in Him, that helps me with being an apsie.

Our Creator is a spirit and made in His image, means: personalty; for as a spirit, we cannot look like Him.

I could say so much more, but will wait to see what happens with this answer, if anything?

I thought Jehova's Witnesses weren't Christian... or did I misunderstand something? If I remember correctly they don't believe Jesus was God... what I'm trying to say is - the way I understand, Christians believe that Christ is God (son of God), or am I wrong?

 

[Maelstrom]

Because the second principle of thermodynamics excludes the possibility of...entropy??

Hi Zurb eschewer of obfuscation, I'm must say that is the most elegant peace of paradoxical sophistry, I have ever seen. I will attempt to more or less agree with you, but as you have done such a masterful job of obfuscation, it is hard to be sure as to what that exactly is? I am not up on the details of thermo. law 2 my present opinion of classic physics is so poor that I only use it for blind matching checks on my own system on hard atomic states, (100%) so far. I agree that no true loss of material or movement in the universe is possible, as infinite time would guarantee, that the universe would be already empty or frozen. And infinite movement guarantees the possible achievement of maximum evolution of a life form, (God?), in the past. However to be fair I will say there is one state that could block maximum, evolution, death by supernova, as evolution at that level would require escape of the solar system to survive and reach maximum power. So here's the dilemma to get rid of God you need to take the position disjunction field research is worthless, on the other hand if the Russians,(no insult intended), or anyone else gets it first, they will achieve total, permanent, global domination and can happily slaughter us like sheep, by meteor bombardment or worse. So Maelstrom says choose carefully there will be no second chance.....
On the rest of it I like logic and I don't care what dumb thing either side is pushing, if it doesn't make sense, I say find out why and fix it.
This is so amusing, I haven't had this much fun in ages.

 

[Ste11aeres]

I thought Jehova's Witnesses weren't Christian... or did I misunderstand something? If I remember correctly they don't believe Jesus was God... what I'm trying to say is - the way I understand, Christians believe that Christ is God (son of God), or am I wrong?

They are one of those denominations that some people refer to as Christian, and others do not consider Christian. It all depends on how one defines the word "Christian". You are right in that they don't believe Jesus is God.

 

[Suzanne]

I thought Jehova's Witnesses weren't Christian... or did I misunderstand something? If I remember correctly they don't believe Jesus was God... what I'm trying to say is - the way I understand, Christians believe that Christ is God (son of God), or am I wrong?

IF Jesus was indeed God, then it would be true, that we are not christians, but to be blunt about it; NO WHERE in the bible, does it say such a thing! God cannot die, but Jesus did. God is too big for our earth, but Jesus came as to our earth. No one can look upon God and live, yet people clearly looked upon Jesus.

People say: I believe in God and think that makes them a christian; Jesus says quite differently that a christian is all about ACTION and not just about belief. Actually many have said that when they read the new testament, they see a great comparison to our faith, which, of course, goes without saying, since we are doing all we can to follow in his footsteps.

Of course, this begs the question? So are mainstream christian lying? How can that be? The answer is amazing; I found this myself when I studied with them. I did give the link for our website, so if you want to press on that link, you can read all about us and what we believe

I must say, it is the first time, I have ever read what you wrote, and I detect no ill feelings, which is pretty unusual and so thank you for just sounding perplexed lol

Let me be clearer on my last paragraph: usually people are accusing etc, but I found your query to be just that and not an attack. Oh dear, when I read the above, I see it comes across as if I always get bad comments from you, which is of course not true! Wow the English language lol

 

[epath13]

Ok, I think I've got it

 

[Maelstrom]

IF Jesus was indeed God,

The origin of and nature Jesus is perplexing, some language seems to indicate God divided in ancient times, other language leans towards angel raised, to Lucifers dismay. It is correct that God, Jesus, and the Holly Spirit are three separate beings. I think some of the confusion comes from the, (as one references), I have decided that that means one will and may indicate telepathic communication between the three, God the, (I AM), is still number one however. It is clear however Jesus will be raised up as number one on earth, what that all entails, I don't know. And I looked up the the old hebrew word used for first born son and it may also read Heir, or Heir to the throne. So I would prefer not to get on Jesus'es bad side, if he has one?
I suspect much of this is tangled semantics and it is not my place to speak for anyone else, it is hard enough to get agreement in ones own church.

 

[pushpin]

IF Jesus was indeed God, then it would be true, that we are not christians, but to be blunt about it; NO WHERE in the bible, does it say such a thing! God cannot die, but Jesus did. God is too big for our earth, but Jesus came as to our earth. No one can look upon God and live, yet people clearly looked upon Jesus.

People say: I believe in God and think that makes them a christian; Jesus says quite differently that a christian is all about ACTION and not just about belief. Actually many have said that when they read the new testament, they see a great comparison to our faith, which, of course, goes without saying, since we are doing all we can to follow in his footsteps.

Of course, this begs the question? So are mainstream christian lying? How can that be? The answer is amazing; I found this myself when I studied with them. I did give the link for our website, so if you want to press on that link, you can read all about us and what we believe

I must say, it is the first time, I have ever read what you wrote, and I detect no ill feelings, which is pretty unusual and so thank you for just sounding perplexed lol

Let me be clearer on my last paragraph: usually people are accusing etc, but I found your query to be just that and not an attack. Oh dear, when I read the above, I see it comes across as if I always get bad comments from you, which is of course not true! Wow the English language lol

This is very fascinating to learn! Thank you for sharing and explaining.

 

[On the Inside]

I don't wish to use thermodynamics to make any sort of point regarding the existence/non existence of an omnipotent being(s), but I like this quote explaining entropy:

A simple application of the second law of thermodynamics is that a room, if not cleaned and tidied, will invariably become more messy and disorderly with time - regardless of how careful one is to keep it clean. When the room is cleaned, its entropy decreases, but the effort to clean it has resulted in an increase in entropy outside the room that exceeds the entropy lost.

“The Three Laws of Thermodynamics.” Boundless Chemistry.

So if god is so busy tidying our room, which room is getting even messier? Or is our's the only room he's worried about? Or is he really just running from room to room shoving things away in the closet?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that my concept of a god breaks down when I start to think too far outside our known, observed corner of the universe, that is, when thinking about astronomical evolution.

Again, I wish no quarrel with either side of the debate. I occupy a third position, that is of the position of observation and reflecting upon those observations. My faith lies in the gradual accumulation of knowledge through exploration, debate, observation, reflection, and questioning. I may not ever see the end product, at least not in the form I inhabit presently, but I am comfortable in my humble and unknowing but respectful state.

Basically, I know there is a "greater power", just don't know what it is, whether it has a name, or whether it knows I exist or not. Thankfully, at least in the limited sphere of my life I know I am loved and love.

 

[Maelstrom]

[QUOTE="On the Inside, So if god is so busy tidying our room, which room is getting even messier? Or is our's the only room he's worried about? Or is he really just running from room to room shoving things away in the closet? [/QUOTE]

Hi nicely written, if I may borrow your lovely theme. It would be nice to believe that, (God - Mom), can wave her hand and take care of any problem. But (Mom - God), has her hands full trying to take care of every one, so at the moment quarantining her rebellious sons toxic mess to his room is the best she can do. (Mom - God), would love to have all the rooms in the house clean, but rebellious son will not cooperate. So (Mom - God), is patently waiting until rebellious son, (goes away), to collage to sterilize his toxic room,(earth), so house can smell nice and clean. end of story

 

[On the Inside]

Hi nicely written, if I may borrow your lovely theme. It would be nice to believe that, (God - Mom), can wave her hand and take care of any problem. But (Mom - God), has her hands full trying to take care of every one, so at the moment quarantining her rebellious sons toxic mess to his room is the best she can do. (Mom - God), would love to have all the rooms in the house clean, but rebellious son will not cooperate. So (Mom - God), is patently waiting until rebellious son, (goes away), to collage to sterilize his toxic room,(earth), so house can smell nice and clean. end of story

That is why I believe that belief is so personal, it relates mostly to one's locale, upbringing, education, exposure to other ways of thinking, and maybe (as in mom's case ie. a CLEAN HOUSE once and for all!) a particular purpose.

At times and to some degree I envy those who are of strong faith and belief in a particular tradition. Trying to make sense out of this is a messy business.

I grew up the son of a quiet but devoted Lutheran mother and a noisy but non-contemplative and unbelieving father. (Actually, he never said much about the subject, he was noisy about other things) While I was sent through the whole confirmation process, baptized, etc. I found so much mystery in the world and universe around me that I became a insatiable questioner.

But mind the root word of questioning....quest. I am on a journey in search of answers, just not certain where, when, or if I will get all of them.