The shamanic view of mental illness

[watersprite]

The above mentioned schism desperately needs bridging, and my creative mind is clouded by an inability to work with people but it is telling me this could be a way into for an initiation process for teens.

Edited to add that for teens to see validity in something like this, an initiation process, it would have to stay far away from the current ridiculous new age material for lack of a better but more offensive word.

 

[Harrison]

The above mentioned schism desperately needs bridging, and my creative mind is clouded by an inability to work with people but it is telling me this could be a way into for an initiation process for teens.

Edited to add that for teens to see validity in something like this, an initiation process, it would have to stay far away from the current ridiculous new age material for lack of a better but more offensive word.

I was thinking about what you wrote. The last time we saw a huge shift was actually with the first Star Wars movie.

It was scripted with help from Joseph Campbell who suggested the elements needed for a 'new myth', Jung's archetypes are plainly evident in the characters and their opposing forces of the shadow self. Even back in the day it was self evidently a rite oif passage myth. Forget the prequel/sequels though.

Interestingly, a lot of taoism was used to put together the idea of the Jedi. Not that I'm promoting taoism as an answer, just that it is one of the least interesting philosophies in the west, but dress it up in a myth...

The result, we know, right down to a new 'faith' based upon the idea of the Jedi. Of course the motif has been used before in much of our mythology.

Totally agree about the new age movement, a well meaning idea populated by a lot of bad science.

 

[AsheSkyler]

One of the nice things about shamanism, like taoism, is that it occurs in virtually all faiths and religions. Having worked with a Christian, and Sufi, both on a shamanic path, it was interesting to see how they accomodate belief structures into their faith.

That is pretty cool. I shouldn't think it that hard to blend some faiths and rituals, but, I'm an Aspie. I'm supposed to be pre-dispositioned to not live in an absolutes when it comes to religion. Kind of funny that regular folk are more black-and-white in that area when we're supposed to be the ones known for rigidity.

Totally agree.

A parting thought, one that links back to another thread.

We know that Neanderthals were not fixed to a locale, they were not farmers but were hunter-gatherers. They were obviously good at what they did, and given the world at that time, must have been efficient.

ASD has shown a higher percentage of Neanderthal genes than for NT's. Is this what makes us more efficient?

Very possible. Genetics tend to be very important for a lot of things most don't realize.

Specialization comes to mind. I know from experience I can often do one thing well, but two things is a real struggle and tends to overwhelm me.

And thinking about this, if it is true, it is a shame in a way that we have such difficulty finding a place today for our talents/strengths. For once we were the recognized masters of Guba Bean collecting.

I thought we were the go-to for train identifying?

With society pushing more and more for a jack-of-all-trades, it's no surprise it's getting harder for us to find a place. Especially in the programming department, you can't half find a job these days unless you speak about 10+ coding languages. 2-5 I can understand, but 10+ is a bit excessive and demanding.

 

[Slithytoves]

Joseph Campbell was one of the leading exponents of the rites of passage for our children. His work, though vast, is worth every moment you will spend reading it.

So, if as a community we fail our children by not having a rite of passage, what replaces it?

In some areas it is gangs, and in the UK this has become a huge problem for teenage girls who are being forced into sexual initiation rites by street gangs. No doubt the same problem occurs in the rest of the 'developed' world. Similarly teenage boys are initiated by their peers by committing acts of violence against total strangers rather than other gangs.

I took an excellent course on Campbell at, of all places, a community college. It was taught by an aging biker who wore leathers to class and used his helmet as the conch shell from Lord of the Flies during discussions. In our section on rites of passage, we watched a film in which Campbell described a ritual in Papua New Guinea wherein an adolescent boy is confronted by a man with a mask. The mask represents the gods and the power/order of adult society the boy has been taught to fear. He fights the masked man and is allowed to win. The mask is then put on the boy, as a symbol of his transformation.

Of course you're right about gangs, and there are rites of passage in gang cultures that approximate the one in PNG. Namely, being arrested and serving time in jail. The difference is that the mask in this scenario is a uniform, but the ritual is deeply flawed since the broader society doesn't condone or understand it and there is also no transfer of power in the result, only further subjugation to it. This strengthens the role of the gangs as surrogate families/culture, both within and outside of prison, because it is only within that context that the ritual battle is considered a passage into maturity. We desperately need to find a rite of passage for economically disadvantaged young men that draws them into the mainstream rather than pushing them further from it. Some historically black fraternities have their own rituals associated with college graduation, but very few minority youth ever have the resources (not just financial) to go to college.

This is straying pretty far from the point of your thread. I just see a lot in the psycho-spiritual importance of rites of passage, having been through a few myself, so this particular aspect of the article really spoke to me.

 

[Slithytoves]

This is a quote from "Towards a more culturally sensitive DSM-IV: Psychoreligious and Psychospiritual problems"

In theory, research, and practice, mental health professionals have tended to ignore or pathologize the religious and spiritual dimensions of life. This represents a type of cultural insensitivity toward individuals who have religious and spiritual experiences in both Western and non-Western cultures.

The American Council on Social Work Education started a working group in 2011 to promote awareness about religious and spiritual issues in therapy and develop an evidence-based framework for addressing those issues in a clinical context. I was involved in a local effort (my chapter of the National Association of Social Workers) in support of the program, but it was clear very early on that what it was turning into was a way to insert particular religious viewpoints, even blatant proselytization, into what should be a religiously neutral profession. This may not be true everywhere but it's definitely a problem where I am.

I was distraught by this, because the profession of social work doesn't have the ego or politics of doctors and medicine; I figured it was America's best chance for seeing spirituality and science marry happily in mental health care. See related comments below.

I hope, for the future of our race, that we'll find a way to combine spiritual and scientific philosophies to better advance and evolve, rather than maintaining the prevalently blinkered view that "This is the only way to understand this thing", "This is the only way to think".

This will be a neat trick in the United States because religion here has become so politicized. Large religious denominations have aligned with particular ideologies which, to make things worse, aren't very accepting of other religious and spiritual points of view.

My stepfather is an internist and medical school instructor. He talks about a war within his profession that we see glimpses of in the media; doctors "of faith" wanting the latitude to choose who they treat, and the freedom to incorporate their religious beliefs in their medical practice. This only makes it less likely that the Medical Profession (proper) will ever be open to embracing spirituality as an aspect of diagnosis and treatment beyond simply pathologizing it, or to listening seriously to any ideas that come from a spiritual place. I know there's a bigger issue in play about the infallibility of science, etc., but this is also a serious problem.

I hope the mod staff will understand that this post isn't designed to start a religious argument. We should be able to speak on the subject, and like adults, when it is relevant to a topic/problem in discussion.

 

[watersprite]

I think, perhaps, that without the rites of passage we are left with generations who have failed to be taught the way of Power and strength of Heart required to take personal responsibility, to take ownership of their selves and as a result have no respect for Earth. Our feet stand on it and our mouths are pressed to it, but we have been caught up in a juggernaught of hubris. They/we having never healed from the wounds of growing up, have spent all or most of their spiritual psychic energies defending an indefensible position of what materialistic Western culture dangles in lieu of real existence and person-hood. One generation looks to the next in hopes that they, even though they are we, will somehow find a face, realize an identity, but cannot on a scale that is needed offer mentorship nor help to do so.
I ramble.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

If I had another thirty years I think my sole focus would be in looking at a shamanic approach to aspergers...Shame I don't have thirty years.

While on the way into town today I thought about the value of my being a spirit that has a body. I can mediate in this world. Many spirits lack bodies and cannot mediate, as the article suggests. Even Christian theology, at least some brands of it, emphasize that Christ's hands were nailed, and our hands are free: thus resolving the faith-vs-works salvation argument, but also making it clear that it isn't the spirit that's unusual, it's that a spirit has a body that it's allowed to use.

And that body is so needy. Mine gets needier as I get older. Bathroom breaks, nap attacks, hormonal upsets, surprise changes in what I can eat, or want to; energy drop...to say nothing of the ongoing battle to keep it fed, housed, and clothed...but in the moments when I am not caring for the body, what can spirit and body do together?

Maybe it's those brief engagements, maybe things I didn't think much of at the time, was that the work given me to do, the work that set change rippling into the future?

I recall a quote that "In 100 years, it will not matter what car I drove, or how much was in my bank account. It will matter that I made a difference in the life of a child." I don't believe this is talking about being a parent. I believe it's about making a difference that transcends the body.

Hmm. I'm wondering if it's only too late if we don't start now, in doing the work we are called to do to set in motion the changes to come. Who among us will get to see how it all turns out?

 

[Harrison]

That is pretty cool. I shouldn't think it that hard to blend some faiths and rituals, but, I'm an Aspie. I'm supposed to be pre-dispositioned to not live in an absolutes when it comes to religion. Kind of funny that regular folk are more black-and-white in that area when we're supposed to be the ones known for rigidity.

It is interesting that in many cultures the logos of the shaman, as opposed to the medicine man/woman, is that of the 'trickster'. This isn't in the context of a con artist, more along the lines of 'knowing what others do not know'. Yes, there are areas that would be classed as 'magical' but in essence they vary so much that one wouldn't use them to define the shaman. So here is a person who 'knows', and that knowing is kept away from the rest of the tribe.

Aspies, from what I've seen, are good at that one. Specialists to the point of confounding their immediate circle

With society pushing more and more for a jack-of-all-trades, it's no surprise it's getting harder for us to find a place. Especially in the programming department, you can't half find a job these days unless you speak about 10+ coding languages. 2-5 I can understand, but 10+ is a bit excessive and demanding.

It does seem to be they way of things, people are no longer valued on their true skill, rather, they are valued as a pack horse.

I took an excellent course on Campbell at, of all places, a community college. It was taught by an aging biker who wore leathers to class and used his helmet as the conch shell from Lord of the Flies during discussions. In our section on rites of passage, we watched a film in which Campbell described a ritual in Papua New Guinea wherein an adolescent boy is confronted by a man with a mask. The mask represents the gods and the power/order of adult society the boy has been taught to fear. He fights the masked man and is allowed to win. The mask is then put on the boy, as a symbol of his transformation.

I have seen variations of this, including the unmasking to reveal it is the boys father, a theme played out in Star Wars between Luke and Darth Vader.

We desperately need to find a rite of passage for economically disadvantaged young men that draws them into the mainstream rather than pushing them further from it. Some historically black fraternities have their own rituals associated with college graduation, but very few minority youth ever have the resources (not just financial) to go to college.

This is straying pretty far from the point of your thread. I just see a lot in the psycho-spiritual importance of rites of passage, having been through a few myself, so this particular aspect of the article really spoke to me.

In the recent past the armed forces served as the de facto initiator, bringing the young man into adulthood through discipline and training. In the UK this is still held to be true with recruitment drives aimed at skill training rather than warfare, but, for many young people the idea of a regimented 'birthing' into adulthood is not appealing. How to define that process of initiation is tricky. Most countries still have a national service requirement, those that I have lived in do show a more 'stable' youth culture.

I don't believe you're off point with your thoughts, the subject matter is broad at best.

The American Council on Social Work Education started a working group in 2011 to promote awareness about religious and spiritual issues in therapy and develop an evidence-based framework for addressing those issues in a clinical context. I was involved in a local effort (my chapter of the National Association of Social Workers) in support of the program, but it was clear very early on that what it was turning into was a way to insert particular religious viewpoints, even blatant proselytization, into what should be a religiously neutral profession. This may not be true everywhere but it's definitely a problem where I am.

I was distraught by this, because the profession of social work doesn't have the ego or politics of doctors and medicine; I figured it was America's best chance for seeing spirituality and science marry happily in mental health care. See related comments below.

This will be a neat trick in the United States because religion here has become so politicized. Large religious denominations have aligned with particular ideologies which, to make things worse, aren't very accepting of other religious and spiritual points of view.

My stepfather is an internist and medical school instructor. He talks about a war within his profession that we see glimpses of in the media; doctors "of faith" wanting the latitude to choose who they treat, and the freedom to incorporate their religious beliefs in their medical practice. This only makes it less likely that the Medical Profession (proper) will ever be open to embracing spirituality as an aspect of diagnosis and treatment beyond simply pathologizing it, or to listening seriously to any ideas that come from a spiritual place. I know there's a bigger issue in play about the infallibility of science, etc., but this is also a serious problem.

I hope the mod staff will understand that this post isn't designed to start a religious argument. We should be able to speak on the subject, and like adults, when it is relevant to a topic/problem in discussion.

I find this disturbing, deeply so. Medicine has always been seen to be neutral, that a doctor offers help irrespective of race, gender or ideology.

I think, perhaps, that without the rites of passage we are left with generations who have failed to be taught the way of Power and strength of Heart required to take personal responsibility, to take ownership of their selves and as a result have no respect for Earth. Our feet stand on it and our mouths are pressed to it, but we have been caught up in a juggernaught of hubris. They/we having never healed from the wounds of growing up, have spent all or most of their spiritual psychic energies defending an indefensible position of what materialistic Western culture dangles in lieu of real existence and person-hood. One generation looks to the next in hopes that they, even though they are we, will somehow find a face, realize an identity, but cannot on a scale that is needed offer mentorship nor help to do so.
I ramble.

Beautifully said @Kestral. Here is the crux, in a few decades we have forgotten from whence we came, forgotten that we do not own this world or any part of it, that we share it not just with each other but with every living thing. Humanity has divorced itself from Nature and become a cancer.

I'm wondering if it's only too late if we don't start now, in doing the work we are called to do to set in motion the changes to come. Who among us will get to see how it all turns out?

There is a saying along the lines, "The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now".

 

[Harrison]

Just to pull the thread somewhat back on track it might be worth looking at the core ideology behind many shamanic systems.

1. The inner landscape of the mind is regarded as being as powerful as the external world. This is a concept that has been picked up by various fields of science, the realisation that everything we perceive occurs in the black chamber of the skull. You do not see through your eyes, for example. The electrical impulses are decoded deep within the brain where a 'model' of what the brain believes to be there is created.

Yes, we can argue that the external world is 'real' in every sense, but it is a theory, not a fact. Some mental disorders cause the patient to perceive their surroundings in a manner that is at a tangent with those around them. One could argue that the person is correct and everyone else is wrong, but, the definition of sanity rests upon a 'social agreement'. That is, if there are six people in the room and one of them sees something that the rest do not then that person is not acting sane. So, sanity is a concensus.

2. The internal world is populated by 'beings' that do not exist externally. Jung brought science to this arena, showing that the mind creates and populates itself with all manner of creatures. Some of these he referred to as archetypes, which, strictly speaking, refers to the first occurence, meeting, or event that is logged in the mind. Every living thing has archetypes, it is not a human condition. Part of the learning curve of all living creatures is based upon reactive reductionism.

For the shaman, or even the psychoanalyst, the archetype represents a 'key' that can unlock a condition, for the patient this can produce a powerful catharsis when the correct archetype is accessed.

Each archetype will anchor 'events' perceived internally or externally by the patient. They can be 'real', witnessed by others and having a physical effect, or 'imaginary', witnessed by the patient only with no corresponding evidence. Both of these are as important as the other, both can affect a person so deeply as to present a real and present trauma.

3. The more associations that an archetype has the more complex is its nature within the mental landscape. Sometimes it can appear that there is another person running around in your head, this being feels as three dimensional as you do. I watched an aboriginal medicine man work on a patient, finding a complex archetype he exclaimed "Jeez this is a Big Fella!". Doesn't sound much but what he meant was that the archetype in question had 'history'.

4. Shamans believe that everything in the mental landscape can communicate. This is one subject that gets the most questions from my audience, yet we, as humans, accept it daily. The reason we accept it is because it happens in our head constantly.

How many people have conversations with their pets?
What about inanimate objects?
Or nature?

How many of you sit and watch films or programs where those conversations are part of the script, and you do so without thinking it's really weird?

It is not escapism.

Inside your mental landscape is a world of communication, everything is capable of making itself known.

These are just a selection of the concepts behind how a shaman works, some of you may see that the ideas also exist in the more 'scientific' realms of psychotherapy.

 

[watersprite]

I believe a large percentage of my artworks are conversations and/or graphic representations of my inner conversations with concepts, ideas, maps of my represeand beings. Reading this helps me clarify and continue to further the manifestation of it all.
Harrison hope this isn't too off topic: I was wondering if the shamanistic traditions that you are knowledgeable about have anything that amounts to prayers for Earth's end-time?

 

[Harrison]

I believe a large percentage of my artworks are conversations and/or graphic representations of my inner conversations with concepts, ideas, maps of my represeand beings. Reading this helps me clarify and comtinue to further the manifestation of it all.
Harrison hope this isn't too off topic: I was wondering if the shamanistic traditions that you are knowledgeable about have anything that amounts to prayers for Earth's end-time?

I've met a few artists who work like that, might be worth having a chat with Aspergirl4hire

Most of traditions I've worked with do not recognise an end time, they do see an end of humanity though, with a return of the Earth to a more peaceful existence. Shamanism, per se, doesn't have the hierarchy of god(s), so there's no-one to pray to apart from other spirits.

 

[watersprite]

I've met a few artists who work like that, might be worth having a chat with Aspergirl4hire

Most of traditions I've worked with do not recognise an end time, they do see an end of humanity though, with a return of the Earth to a more peaceful existence. Shamanism, per se, doesn't have the hierarchy of god(s), so there's no-one to pray to apart from other spirits.

One of my only true comforts is the idea of humans being permanently off the Earth, and that the spirits of all the plants, trees, birds and animals who are going extinct are in fact not being destroyed along with their bodies.

 

[AsheSkyler]

How many people have conversations with their pets? What about inanimate objects? Or nature?
Quite a few!

How many of you sit and watch films or programs where those conversations are part of the script, and you do so without thinking it's really weird?
My husband doesn't like watching TV with me sometimes because of it.
Got me into a bit of trouble with a book. The author offed these two wonderful dogs in the story, then had one of the characters dare say "it was God's will". Heck no, it wasn't God's will, it was the will of a sadistic writer to have two of her characters torn to shreds! Bad writing, if ya ask me. Which I guess it could be argued that the author was in a way the god of the world since it was her will for everything that happened in the story, but she wasn't referring to herself in that line.

These are just a selection of the concepts behind how a shaman works, some of you may see that the ideas also exist in the more 'scientific' realms of psychotherapy.

I must admit when I read what the shaman did with that guy when he brought him to Africa and made him better that my first thought was, "Well, duh! What idiot ever thought locking a guy into a white-walled prison and trying to turn him into a drug addict would ever make him better?" Not to belittle anybody who benefits from taking a chemical-balancing pill, I just feel it's over-prescribed and abused with nary a thought to all the methods that are actually best for the individual, whether it's a pill or what. I think some of their issues boils down to a sense of purpose or given a proper chance at all. Heck, you can't even get proper training from the company that hired you who promised training for your position, what hope has somebody who needs a little extra attention?

I've read a few stories about some social rejects who were pretty depressed and often told they were worthless and useless until they went to a farm and groomed dogs or horses and/or were put in charge of those animals until it boosted their confidence enough they were able to perk up all around and recover. Mr. Somé was right when he said a lot of our so-called mentally ill weren't being given proper treatment. Sometimes what you need is a pet rock or to pet a dog.

 

[wyverary]

Wow, this thread has almost made my brain explode. I'm still struggling to understand the core concepts here, so all I will do is offer my opinion on the various ways in which various treatments might intersect with some spiritual concepts that I think I am seeing here. And I will include the disclaimer that, since I am still not fully grasping the issue, some of what I say may be irrelevant, or born of a misunderstanding of what's being discussed, and beg to be corrected where wrong.

There is an NPR podcast, relatively new, which I won't name because I thought it was terrible and saturated with pseudoscience, but the first episode profiled somebody with Obsessive Thoughts Syndrome, or OTD. (They didn't call it that in the show, but I've since learned it does have that formal name.) His first attempt at treatment was with psychoanalysis, which I have seen mentioned in the thread already; a treatment based on the premise that every thought one has has meaning of some sort, and the primary objective (as I understand it) is to seek out the sources of these thoughts, many of which are likely buried deep within the subconscious. Now, this man's particular manifestation of OTD involved a fear that he would, out of the blue, snap and decide to kill someone. He had a few sessions with this psychoanalyst before she stopped returning his calls. What worked for him was "mindfulness therapy," which as I understand it is based on a lot of Buddhist/Taoist practices, and emphasizes that the majority of thoughts we have ARE meaningless, coming out of nowhere. Meditation plays a large role in the treatment, and he found this much more helpful, even to the point where he finally began to be able to function normally...the thoughts were still there, but for the most part, he was able to live with it and lead a full life with his partner (whom he had always feared he would kill). Psychoanalysis in its purest form is now on the fringes of therapy, though of course aspects of it are still being used to great effect.

Now, from my own experience and opinions... Neuroscience, I am told, is by far the fastest-growing, most cutting-edge field of science we have today. I don't know if you could call me a "materialist," or a "skeptic," or what, but I think everything that happens in our brains has a purely physical component. In my own case, I know this from EEGs, MRIs, and experimentation with psychotropic medications. As for how a particular disease might manifest itself, or when, or why...that's another area that is being closely studied and I truly don't know. It seems, based on my research, that while there are genetic, physiological risk factors, sometimes the environment DOES play a role, or how early one is able to begin treatment. (I had a link, but dammit, I lost it!) So it's the nature/nurture thing, which of course is not an actual dichotomy and they are not mutually exclusive. As for management of my symptoms? Medication, again, physiological intervention, has proven indispensable; but only in combination with other therapies...CBT, for example, but even more so, mindfulness. I don't think any mental illness can be treated without some form of self-awareness as well, and in many cases yes, I do think medication is grossly overused, and therapy and lifestyle management grossly underused.

All this to say: Hell, I don't really know what to think! I'm just putting these things out there in the hope for some clarification.

 

[Tia Maria]

There is a saying along the lines, "The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now".

As a person who has been planting trees for exactly 21 years (shrubs & other plants before that), I never heard this saying before. Wow, I love it.

I have to revisit this discussion & read through it thoughtfully later. (I will enjoy it thoroughly!) But that comment just caught my eye. I will have to pin it up, or frame it, for somewhere in my home. Or maybe in the garden.

 

[Licorice]

Regardless of whether or not spirits are real, the emotional, social, and psychological effects of these practices are obviously capable of reaching some people who otherwise wither away in institutions.

To test his belief that the shamanic view of mental illness holds true in the Western world as well as in indigenous cultures, Dr. Somé took a mental patient back to Africa with him, to his village. “I was prompted by my own curiosity to find out whether there’s truth in the universality that mental illness could be connected with an alignment with a being from another world,” says Dr. Somé.

Alex was an 18-year-old American who had suffered a psychotic break when he was 14. He had hallucinations, was suicidal, and went through cycles of dangerously severe depression. He was in a mental hospital and had been given a lot of drugs, but nothing was helping. “The parents had done everything–unsuccessfully,” says Dr. Somé. “They didn’t know what else to do.”

With their permission, Dr. Somé took their son to Africa. “After eight months there, Alex had become quite normal, Dr. Somé reports. He was even able to participate with healers in the business of healing; sitting with them all day long and helping them, assisting them in what they were doing with their clients . . . . He spent about four years in my village.” Alex stayed by choice, not because he needed more healing. He felt, “much safer in the village than in America.”

To bring his energy and that of the being from the spiritual realm into alignment, Alex went through a shamanic ritual designed for that purpose, although it was slightly different from the one used with the Dagara people. “He wasn’t born in the village, so something else applied. But the result was similar, even though the ritual was not literally the same,” explains Dr. Somé. The fact that aligning the energy worked to heal Alex demonstrated to Dr. Somé that the connection between other beings and mental illness is indeed universal.

After the ritual, Alex began to share the messages that the spirit being had for this world. Unfortunately, the people he was talking to didn’t speak English (Dr. Somé was away at that point). The whole experience led, however, to Alex’s going to college to study psychology. He returned to the United States after four years because “he discovered that all the things that he needed to do had been done, and he could then move on with his life.”

The last that Dr. Somé heard was that Alex was in graduate school in psychology at Harvard. No one had thought he would ever be able to complete undergraduate studies, much less get an advanced degree.

 

[Harrison]

Wow, this thread has almost made my brain explode. I'm still struggling to understand the core concepts here, so all I will do is offer my opinion on the various ways in which various treatments might intersect with some spiritual concepts that I think I am seeing here. And I will include the disclaimer that, since I am still not fully grasping the issue, some of what I say may be irrelevant, or born of a misunderstanding of what's being discussed, and beg to be corrected where wrong.

There is an NPR podcast, relatively new, which I won't name because I thought it was terrible and saturated with pseudoscience, but the first episode profiled somebody with Obsessive Thoughts Syndrome, or OTD. (They didn't call it that in the show, but I've since learned it does have that formal name.) His first attempt at treatment was with psychoanalysis, which I have seen mentioned in the thread already; a treatment based on the premise that every thought one has has meaning of some sort, and the primary objective (as I understand it) is to seek out the sources of these thoughts, many of which are likely buried deep within the subconscious. Now, this man's particular manifestation of OTD involved a fear that he would, out of the blue, snap and decide to kill someone. He had a few sessions with this psychoanalyst before she stopped returning his calls. What worked for him was "mindfulness therapy," which as I understand it is based on a lot of Buddhist/Taoist practices, and emphasizes that the majority of thoughts we have ARE meaningless, coming out of nowhere. Meditation plays a large role in the treatment, and he found this much more helpful, even to the point where he finally began to be able to function normally...the thoughts were still there, but for the most part, he was able to live with it and lead a full life with his partner (whom he had always feared he would kill). Psychoanalysis in its purest form is now on the fringes of therapy, though of course aspects of it are still being used to great effect.

Now, from my own experience and opinions... Neuroscience, I am told, is by far the fastest-growing, most cutting-edge field of science we have today. I don't know if you could call me a "materialist," or a "skeptic," or what, but I think everything that happens in our brains has a purely physical component. In my own case, I know this from EEGs, MRIs, and experimentation with psychotropic medications. As for how a particular disease might manifest itself, or when, or why...that's another area that is being closely studied and I truly don't know. It seems, based on my research, that while there are genetic, physiological risk factors, sometimes the environment DOES play a role, or how early one is able to begin treatment. (I had a link, but dammit, I lost it!) So it's the nature/nurture thing, which of course is not an actual dichotomy and they are not mutually exclusive. As for management of my symptoms? Medication, again, physiological intervention, has proven indispensable; but only in combination with other therapies...CBT, for example, but even more so, mindfulness. I don't think any mental illness can be treated without some form of self-awareness as well, and in many cases yes, I do think medication is grossly overused, and therapy and lifestyle management grossly underused.

All this to say: Hell, I don't really know what to think! I'm just putting these things out there in the hope for some clarification.

There are no easy answers I'm afraid. There is a question I can ask here at the beginning that may help lead to a better grasp, it is this...

"Can you define the process that was used to diagnose your ASD, in detail?"

Simple enough question, one I asked myself ten years ago, my answer was surprising, so I'd like to hear yours.

Some clarification.

Shamanism, when investigated, is not a spiritual process. At least not in the way that one thinks of it. The reason Jung took to shamanic reasoning was that at it's core it is, to put it simply, a form of psychoanalysis. Obviously, cultural necessity bonds both dogma and spiritual needs to any system where one believes there is an 'occult' (hidden) viewpoint.

I did mention earlier that shamans prize their knowledge, after all, it's what keeps them in a job, and so they tend to keep it a secret. So I shall break a rule or two, and in doing so include some modern comparisons.

Certain words have a 'charge' that is built up over time, that charge may be unique to an individual or be defined by a culture. One of those words is 'spirit'. Shamans do not talk to spirits, end of, they may refer to them as such or their tribe may do so, but it is not what happens.

I know you said you are a black and white science guy so we'll keep it within classic science. It is accepted that the mind is primarily divided into two zones. The self aware or conscious mind, and the unaware subconscious mind. These two are subject to further bifurcation, but that can wait.

It is accepted by the man in the street that everything that happens is available to the individual in their self aware state, of course, science says 'it ain't so'. On the simplest level we have two worlds, one that we believe we function within and call the real world, and one that resides in our subconscious as our imaginary world.

What is the neurological, scientific difference between the two? Answer = Nothing.

That is the answer of leading edge neuroscience. Real world stimuli and imaginary world stimuli have exactly the same biological, chemical and electrical effects upon the organism as a whole.

Of course, there are sufficient historical medical conditions to support the initial finding, one such is stigmata.

There was a time when the appearance of stigmata was relatively common, it could lead towards sainthood in some cases, and yet we know now that the marks, bruising, bleeding associated with it has a purely neurobiological origin. Either the conscious mind created it through emotional trauma or the subconscious did. There is no ground whatsoever for proposing a purely logic based neurological cause, why would nature need stigmata?

Moving on, the mind and it's division use different base tools to organise themselves. Conscious mind uses language more than imagery, whilst the reverse is true for the subconscious, and it is here we see the need for a kind of buffer zone. The subconscious wants to pass information, it sends a picture, a movie perhaps. Whereas the conscious mind has 'internal dialogue'.

I'm sure your aware of pareidolia, the ability to recognise faces from a limited amount of data. It's an evolved survival technique, very useful. That same technique lets us see faces in clouds, on Mars, a loaf of bread or bowl of porridge. It is also the same process that lets us anthropomorphize the world at large. It's all about safety.

The subconscious mind knows that we can do those things so it uses images to convey information from the subconscious, those images are what I referred to earlier as archetypes. In and of themselves the visual data of an archetype is less important than the neurobiological data it represents.

Look at this -

All it is is an image, nothing more, to the uneducated it means nothing whatsoever. But, that image has an underlying truth/data that can be accessed instantly by the mind of someone who knows what Pi is. Pi is an archetypal pattern, as it can mean nothing else than what it is, yet its effect exists within virtually the whole of our 'real' world, unseen.

Here's another symbol -

A few million people can tell you the whole story from that image.

Science and faith use the same tools, that of the logo.

I'll try to create a simple example, it wont be perfect. Let us say that the subconscious wants us to know, on a conscious level, that there is a 'problem' within us. We have already seen that it can't just tell us verbally, so it creates a logo/archetype to represent the issue. In order to do that it searches the memory for things that may relate to the issue and synthesises it. Then it dumps it into our conscious state whilst we sleep, we know these as dreams.

What if we ignore our dreams though?

Then the subconscious mind, depending upon the level of severity, might 'punch' the logo into our conscious waking time. Sometimes these are in the form of hallucinations, but they can also be as physical manifestations of distress.

Agreed, 99% of thoughts running through your conscious mind are unimportant, well, unless you're researching awareness of self. That 1%, however, could kill you if you don't pay attention.

I really need breakfast and to get ready, hopefully this helped clarify some things

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

I love where this is going. I can feel something ringing, like a distant bell, except it's not a sound, and not a "feeling." More like vibrating to the overtone of a single note.

...a treatment based on the premise that every thought one has has meaning of some sort, and the primary objective (as I understand it) is to seek out the sources of these thoughts, many of which are likely buried deep within the subconscious...this man's particular manifestation of OTD involved a fear that he would, out of the blue, snap and decide to kill someone. He had a few sessions with this psychoanalyst before she stopped returning his calls.

Exactly what's wrong with reliance on logos that's been prefiltered. I have come to believe that education lags knowledge by a substantial margin, but it's still the primary means that we can communicate with others because it provides the base assumption set. Problem is confirmation bias. I'm starting to believe that this is why we need teenagers: they will question everything.

What worked for him was "mindfulness therapy," which as I understand it is based on a lot of Buddhist/Taoist practices, and emphasizes that the majority of thoughts we have ARE meaningless...

My very limited exposure to mindfulness worked somewhat differently, for me, but I'm enjoying the contrast. I too found meditative mindfulness helpful. The thoughts were still there, but they lose force when not taken seriously. The simple act of "thank you, mind, for the thought," and a dismissal of the thought, was stunning.

I think everything that happens in our brains has a purely physical component...It seems, based on my research, that while there are genetic, physiological risk factors, sometimes the environment DOES play a role...

About 50%, according to what I'm reading now: Jesse Prinz, Beyond Human Nature. Although I think his argument is pointing towards the ability to recognize some things outside the mind. Still a lot of book left...would love to explore it with you when I've got a clue.

So it's the nature/nurture thing, which of course is not an actual dichotomy and they are not mutually exclusive. Medication, again, physiological intervention, has proven indispensable; but only in combination with other therapies

It's been interesting for me to learn what medications actually matter and what ones don't, even though they're all "justified." And I don't think the experience is generalizable, not when even identical twins with different experiences can be distinguished by those experiences.

All this to say: Hell, I don't really know what to think! I'm just putting these things out there in the hope for some clarification.

Got that in common with you, as well.

"Can you define the process that was used to diagnose your ASD, in detail?"

Yes. Became convinced that doctors see what their training predisposes them to see, so have to harness them all, forcibly, to cooperate. Very tiring, running through all those not-entirely-right diagnoses.

Science and faith use the same tools, that of the logo.

If we're exclusively talking about human communications, I mostly believe that.

99% of thoughts running through your conscious mind are unimportant, well, unless you're researching awareness of self. That 1%, however, could kill you if you don't pay attention.

And that wreaks havoc on the ratio, doesn't it? Or so says my small intestine .

Really, really enjoying this thread, and appreciating people on it en masse.

 

[Harrison]

The use of the Logo is well established within the psyche of humanity, it is also well researched, ask any marketting exec or government agency. However, within the individual the various archetypes can be made to manifest in a multitude of ways. The most common being -

1. Humanoid - often referred to as spirit guides, angels, demons etc
2. Animal - often referred to as power animals or totem animals
3. Plants - often referred to plant spirit medicine

There are many more, and those three all have subsets.

As well as these we also carry mental versions of our family, friends and enemies, but remember, non of these are external. On top of this pile we carry a set of alternative versions of ourselves. The primary is the anima/animus which constitutes the biological opposite of what we are in life. So mine is a female. There are also aspects such as the Shadow which is made up of aspects we choose to not show the world.

There has been some interesting work done on the Shadowself in relation to serial killers and the fact that many of them present a very 'pleasant' and untroubled face to the world. Here it is posited that they bury their rage within the Shadow until it reaches critical mass and overwhelms the outer personality.

I'm not saying for one instance that every mental disorder can be framed in this way, there are far too many factors to consider. However, there is evidence to support further research into both identifying cause and enabling a resolution.

In these times of science is it possible to manipulate these archetypes through medication?

It may appear so, but many medical proffesionals are undecided on whether the drugs simply stupify and mask the underlying condition rather than offering a real 'cure'. Much more needs to be done, the internal world is both infinite and timeless, the creative power of any single individual far outweighs the limits we are at presently. Until science unlocks the true nature of Mind we can only sit and talk, as we have throughout human history.

One thing I loved about a shamanic approach to the Mind is that they do not have a 'one size fits all' mentality. Every journey of every mind is totally unique, so the shaman must walk between worlds and converse with the 'gods'.

 

[tachyon]

I'm really enjoying this thread.

Yes, we can argue that the external world is 'real' in every sense, but it is a theory, not a fact. Some mental disorders cause the patient to perceive their surroundings in a manner that is at a tangent with those around them. One could argue that the person is correct and everyone else is wrong, but, the definition of sanity rests upon a 'social agreement'. That is, if there are six people in the room and one of them sees something that the rest do not then that person is not acting sane. So, sanity is a concensus.

Scary but probably true.

I tend to agree with Kant that while our senses seem to give a good map of objects around us, we have no way of knowing with certainty that the sense data we get from an object then interpreted by the conscious brain is a 100% accurate representation of the 'thing-in-itself' (or 'ding-an-sich' as Kant said).

The fact that 99% interpret things in a very similar manner could be seen as just an argument 'ad populum' i.e.: 2 billion followers of a faith believe this, therefore it must be true.

Perhaps we should not be so eager to discard the 1%