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Psych Experiment indicating ASD?

Dragon_Smoke

Well-Known Member
When I was at University, I was told to complete a number of puzzles/tests to help out a psychology student.. She was exploring something to do with musicians and speech therapy.. or something.. Can't remember..

Anyway.. I was asked to complete two tasks simaltaneously for 20 minutes: a) complete a series of Kohs Block Design tests, memory tests and drawings, and, b ) listen to and then repeat without thought a psychology lecture, fed through a set of headphones, which she then recorded.

I found that I had absolutely no difficulty performing any of the tasks, and could even speak in a conversational tone repeating the lecture.. I later found out from the student that normal people can't do that, but is an indicator of an ASD..

Is this true, and why-? :)
 
I don't know about the validity of the test, but here are my thoughts on what you have described:

1) It could be entirely incorrect because it has been suggested that people with ASD's tend to have single attention rather than multiple attention, and thus often become "hyperfocused" to the degree that we become inflexible with respect to what we are doing.

2) If it does indeed indicate an ASD, it would be because it indicates whether or not the person's linguistic processing and the "logical" processing are separate. What we do know about ASD's is that people who have them tend to process information DIFFERENTLY (not necessarily better or worse) than NT's.

I'd be interested to know if you are right handed or left handed, which ear you prefer to listen to music in, and which ear you use to hold a phone to. I think this study indicates more about hemispheric lateralization and corpus callosum function than the presence of ASD's (thus the question on the validity of the test: does this test measure what it says it measures, and what is the evidence thereof?).
 
I wanna try the second one on myself now...

By the way Krisi, what do the things you asked have to do with AS? I never read anything about that.
 
My questions in the previous post have nothing to do with AS and have everything to do with how an individual's brain might be organized. I think that would affect the test more than whether someone has AS. You see:

This test simultaneously examines the prefrontal cortex (logic), the hippocampus (memory), Wernicke's area (incoming language processing), the language association areas, and Broca's area (speech formation). If all of these are on the same side of the brain in an individual (usually the left hemisphere), you will see a different result than if one of these has lateralized to the right instead of the left. To some extent, logic and memory are always processed to a small degree on the right, but language tends to be exclusively on the left, with the exception of prosody. With this test, you would either expect see 1) better performance on the test by an individual who does NOT have right hemisphere language lateralization, because then the left side is more or less exclusively processing all the information, and very little has to pass through the corpus callosum, thus making the system more compact and organized (though I don't think that this is accurate, I'm just trying to be thorough because I'm not sure what the researchers intended) or 2)better performance on the test by individuals who DO have right hemispheric language lateralization, because then you have the right side processing most of the language, the left side processing most of the logic and reasoning tasks, so the system would be more efficient. I think the second possibility is the correct one, it seems to make more sense, because in the first example, it seems likely that that there would be too much neural activity in one localized area, and cause "a neuroelectrical traffic jam", to use colloquial terms. Also, most right handed individuals are language dominant in the left, so the expectation that only a few would succeed at the task would go against that first proposition.

Another possiblitiy of this test is that it assesses corpus callosum function, because no matter where language is lateralized in your brain, some communication between hemispheres is necessary for that kind of multitasking, simultaneous behavior.

The areas of the brain that have been found to be associated with ASD's are the vermis of the cerebellum (not assessed here), the hippocampus (assessed here), the amygdala (not assessed), and the caudate nucleus (not assessed).


I raised the question because I don't think the test measures what it says it does (i.e., has questionable validity). It claims to measure the potential for an ASD, but it only directly assesses one area specific to ASD's in relation to the rest of brain, and because it probably doesn't take hemispheric lateralization into account if that is indeed what they are assessing.
 
You might be interested in the book: Neuroscience for the Study of Communicative Disorders written by Subhash C. Bhatnagar, published by Lippincott Williams & Wilkins in Philadelphia, PA, in the US. I bet you could buy it at Amazon.com, or it might be available in a university library.

All I did was apply what I know about the brain to the study :)
 
I'll check that out, if my monkey-brain can handle it. Thanks!

Wait, does that book use the 'speech for the less intelligent' that you used up there? 'Caused if it ain't about computers, I probably won't get it.
 
It's a fairly high level textbook, I think you would need some basic anatomy and physiology knowledge to understand it, and a little psychology might help, too. So it may not be in your zone of proximal learning at the moment, but I'm sure that it could be, given a little more background info.

I hope I didn't offend you with my writing style choice. One of my "language goals" for myself is to adapt my speech to other people's vocabulary, and to try and put things in terms that they will understand. However, I either end up still talking over people's heads, or sounding like I'm talking to a child, which people don't like, either.
 
Oh no, it was a compliment towards you, and I suppose a bit of a lash at myself. You definitely made it understandable and enjoyable. Although I think the book itself is over my head.
 
Krisi, I wasn't aware of this interesting thread. I guess I have some ready, fluid, mental access to your descriptions.

Besides the entire mammalian cerebrum (and certain 'naked neurons' in primitive organisms), the corpus callosum has always caught my attention, especially in many odd cases.

For those who are not yet familiar with the term: the corpus callosum is a bundle of nerves connecting the right and left cerebral hemispheres of the brain. Easily speaking, it normally functions to impart the same amount of information to the two halves of the brain.

Now, in split-brain patients -- as you already know -- there can supposedly be no communication between the left hemisphere (particularly related to speech-controlling) and the non-verbal right cerebral hemisphere. Hence, in such a case, one cannot verbally, laterally express what one feels or thinks. (At times, I can't help but consider my own dyspraxia, or, worse, what seems to be gradual aphasia in the real sense of Wernicke.)

Let's consider the following generic case. It's about how 'rationality may be (apparently entirely) lost while the mind persists on rationality'.

In one experiment (of Broca, if I'm not mistaken) with a split-brained, epileptic patient, different images were shown to the two hemispheres of the brain, which is possible due to the basic fact that the right and left sections of the retina are connected only to the left side and the right side, respectively, of the brain.

The right, non-verbal hemisphere was shown a winter scene. From among four pictorial choices available -- a snow shovel, a chicken, a leaf, and a pen -- the patient's left hand, controlled by the right half of the brain, pointed to a snow shovel. Then, the left, verbal hemisphere was shown a picture of a chicken's claw. The right hand, controlled by the left half of the brain, chose, from among exactly the same four choices, a picture of a chicken.

So, one may conclude that each half of the patient's brain was intelligent. It is somewhat tempting to generalize it further to all brains, of course.

Why did the split-brained patient -- without the corpus callosum functioning -- point to a snow shovel via the verbal (left) hemisphere, which supposedly was not aware of the winter scene sent to the non-verbal (right) hemisphere, but was still aware of the 'non-verbal' hand pointing to the snow shovel? When asked, "Why the snow shovel?" the patient answered, "Just to shovel out the chicken coop." This shows that an association was dodgily manufactured by the verbal (left) hemisphere just to preserve the appearance (emergence) of rationality (causality), although the chicken coop was not previously mentioned at all in the experiment. It appears that it was a pre-cognitive utter fabrication of the patient's mind.

The question, Krisi, is:

"Despite the presence of the corpus callosum, how much of people's (NT's and non-NT's) daily thinking (or every daily modality) involves such spurious mental associations?"

That (from neuroscience) is not all, though. Instead, now let's ramblingly give ourselves some background as to why reality (particularly physical existence) is roughly the way (we think) it is. Actually, essential things of the brain can conveniently be exposed in terms of quantum mechanics (excepting the 'wave function collapse' paradigm and Bohm's formalism of a hidden (deterministic) potential), without the help of neuroscience. That is, without anatomy at all (though verbally it doesn't necessarily mean refraining from mentioning the brain at all).

Let me emphasize that regular cognitive processing operates on an infinitesimal, unitary time scale. Any physical, isolated system evolves unitarily according to the wave equation of quantum mechanics. Thanks to the unitary character of the Hamiltonian in the evolution equation of Schrödinger. That is, the energy-momentum operator transforms unitarily (unimodularly) with respect to infinitesimal coordinate transformations of space and time (translations and rotations). (This is still similar to the Euclidean background of classical, deterministic 'billiard-ball mechanics', it's the embedded processes that are different -- those include fractal neural networks.) Roughly speaking, this is why we are able to be continuously aware of, say, exactly the same spatial event in a given span of time -- that the conscious event is globally invariant. We can be sure that an (ongoing) event now is indeed the same as the same event a few seconds later (to be more precise, a few split seconds later). That, most probably (due to the stochastic nature of quantum mechanics), Krisi now is the same Krisi a few seconds later, with the brain-mind (the prototypical phenomenal mind) converging an ensemble of superposition states (related to Krisi's being-in-existence) in just a couple of seconds. And since, prior to common (objective) observation, there can be many states, especially brain states, of just one entity, Krisi's being-here is no longer single-valued, it (she) is now a canonical multiverse. Schizophrenia exists-in-itself, without the participation of external observers.

Then, it follows from considering just a (temporarily) isolated part of existence (any isolated system, such as the brain), that the entire Universe evolves according to the Schrödinger equation, since it is by definition an isolated system; and so we are aware of the same Universe as long as we exist. That's basically the holographic principle. Let's say, you sleep at night, in this world, and when you wake up the next morning, you almost take it for granted (though rather correctly, as it need not be verified) that you're still experiencing the same world as before.

Upon sense-perception, in just a couple of seconds, (most) phenomenal things (that are otherwise diffusive) get cognitively regularized in the corpus callosum, making sure the brain has a great number of potential directions to the flow of a certain chain of thoughts. (As you already know, normal grown-ups have more amount of white matter in the corpus callosum, which determines their (crystallized) mindsets. And females, since the prenatal stage, are known to have significantly more white matter there than testosterone-laden males. So the majority of girls are supposedly more present, balanced, mature, and predictably regular (neurotypical, non-schizotypal), with respect to both spheres, and to reality. Related to this issue, it is interesting to discover/pinpoint potential differences between a male Aspie and a female Aspie.)

Then, how does something become the content of one's ordinary consciousness?

Well, what if, after all, the brain is just a super-computer -- a universe of automata in itself -- without any operator, with nothing behind it; what if there is just the computer?

Quantum mechanically, the mind (roughly just a mathematical, non-physical, abstract functional (functor), not yet a material brain) perceives all the branches of the wave function associated with a phenomenal event. Only then it freely chooses, before the firing of associated neurons, which branch to focus on. Only then (the notion of) the physical, diamagnetic, cameral brain comes into the picture. Having reflexively received a particular ongoing process from external physical reality, the mind freely chooses from the brain's internal events. This way, the mind plays the role of a puppeteer, and the brain is just like a puppet.

If I were the Universal Programmer, I'd be interested in finding a type of mathematics ('psychogenetic algorithm') for the somatosensoric material brain that would give both order and freedom, increasing complexity (diversity) while avoiding chaos (though not always). Too much order would only systematically determine the whole future of the brain's existence and functioning.

Hence, as a cognitive automaton, the phenomenal mind has no creativity. Creativity requires the presence of cosmic (intrinsic) schizophrenia (a multiverse), other than just the usual reality. Thus, a purely physical, neurological mind (and brain for that matter) cannot possibly undergo (conceive) creativity, for it has 'too much order' in the first place. For this reason, the creative human mind (to me) is necessarily non-physical, as the phenomenal Universe is continuously being self-created (recreated) at every moment (and for seemingly solid objects, it happens through quantum mechanical creation and annihilation of elementary particles).

The mathematical-biological evolution would then allow choices (most especially unique choices) for the thoughts of the mind. From the choices, the mind could freely choose the actions of the physical brain. It is the freely choosing mind, in isomorphic association with the brain's complex neurological arrangements, that makes one conscious.

In quantum mechanics, despite its daily application to particle physics and spintronics (superconductor technology), one may indeed assume (or, rather, perceive) that there are no (material) particles at all; they may exist only as (generally non-conserved) information -- and hence no neurons, axons, synapses, etc., and no brain at all -- and that existence consists solely of the wave function of the non-physical mind. The Universe-in-Itself need not an underlying physical substance (just as the truth of the axioms of geometry (Euclidean and non-Euclidean) does not depend on the existence of solid, material objects at all).

Yet, cognitively knowing this does not necessarily enable one to successfully -- especially mechanistically -- guide one's thoughts, no matter how much one is interested in how things (of the mind and brain) really are. No matter how much one is less concerned about things going one's way as well.

We know that modern neuroscience is not more than 200 years old; it still has little experience and a lot of possibility (most of which is foreseeable by quantum mechanics).
 
wow.. fantastic.. really interesting, thank you Krisi and Evar..

Re: Krisi.

Her experiment wasn't based around ASD, but her comment is what has interested me.

I was interested to find that any words I had not previously heard before I struggled to repeat fluently, and when asked to draw one image from memory after the experiment, my recollection was average.

I am left handed, I have no preference for music listening, I prefer to hold my phone to my right ear.
 
I am left handed, I have no preference for music listening, I prefer to hold my phone to my right ear.

That actually gives me a huge amount of information. I don't know anything for certain because I haven't assessed your neural functioning, but I can hypothesize that, since you are left handed yet you prefer to hold the phone to your right ear that you probably process language on your left side. Otherwise, why, when you are left handed, would you prefer to even hold the phone in your right hand? (input from the right ear goes to the left brain, and vice versa). That might go against the findings of the test you underwent, though, unless your logic processing happens to be on the right instead of the left. I don't know the prevalence of that kind of lateralization.
 
In one experiment (of Broca, if I'm not mistaken) with a split-brained, epileptic patient, different images were shown to the two hemispheres of the brain, which is possible due to the basic fact that the right and left sections of the retina are connected only to the left side and the right side, respectively, of the brain.

The right, non-verbal hemisphere was shown a winter scene. From among four pictorial choices available---a snow shovel, a chicken, a leaf, and a pen---the patient's left hand, controlled by the right half of the brain, pointed to a snow shovel. Then, the left, verbal hemisphere was shown a picture of a chicken's claw. The right hand, controlled by the left half of the brain, chose, from among exactly the same four choices, a picture of a chicken.

So, one may conclude that each half of the patient's brain was intelligent. It is somewhat tempting to generalize it further to all brains, of course.

Why did the split-brained patient---without the corpus callosum functioning---point to a snow shovel via the verbal (left) hemisphere, which supposedly was not aware of the winter scene sent to the non-verbal (right) hemisphere, but was still aware of the 'non-verbal' hand pointing to the snow shovel? When asked, "Why the snow shovel?," the patient answered, "Just to shovel out the chicken coop." This shows that an association was dodgily manufactured by the verbal (left) hemisphere just to preserve the appearance (emergence) of rationality (causality), although the chicken coop was not previously mentioned at all in the experiment. It appears that it was a pre-cognitive utter fabrication of the patient's mind.

While I understood this, I find it sad that I kept thinking "saw it on House" the whole time I was reading this...
 
Blue Dragon, what are your true creative passions in life? :)

I'm actually at a difficult stage of being an adult Aspie, embedded in the so-called real world (Cultural sphere), other than in cyberspace. I mostly live in the Noosphere, very rarely (consciously active) in the Biosphere. But, with certain existential philosophical thoughts, it matters not so much, especially when the existential notion of creativity is highlighted (which is not just about jobs; it's about creation).

It just sometimes feel like self-banishment (almost entirely) without human friends. I wonder how I can be creative about that (truly in practice, not just philosophically), without losing authenticity.

Anyway, the brain (most especially the human brain) actually looks like a miniature of the cosmos (with extragalactic circuits and currents). Even with its tightly interlocked details, it looks so sparse when considerably magnified. Evidently, it's a quantum microcosmos, (holographically speaking) none other than the macrocosmos. Among others, neurons are like planets, axons are like nebulae, and synapses are like galactic magnetic filaments. All that, with (regular) information traveling at the speed of light (just like gravitational and electromagnetic waves), is situated in a background quantum VACUUM, which gives birth to excitations/resonances ('particles'), or, in some exotic cases, solitons. What's a 70-year-old resonance ('human') compared to a cosmic epoch of billions of years of evolution?

Actually, though, once the mind has significantly evolved, it suffices to just look at the quantum dynamics of the infinitesimals; they mirror the large-scale Universe completely. (And, yes, one might ask, what about neuronal equivalent of black holes? Information loss? Chaos?)

And yet, that's that: we are communicating. Consider the existential humor of that, plus Asperger's!
 
I'm sure, it has figured in episodes of House as well, among House's sardonic little talks. How could anyone afford to miss it? I wish House was here. :)


While I understood this, I find it sad that I kept thinking "saw it on House" the whole time I was reading this...
 

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