my experience with Ketogenic Diet and Extended Fasting

[Sid Delicious]

Plant based diets are what put me in hospital. They don't agree with me at all. Although the no sugar I can agree with. I never ate much sugar to begin with, but avoid it even more these days. If the above diet works for you, then definitely stick with that. It's healthier for a lot of people.

 

[Mary Lyn]

It is not working for me - my thyroid is worse so I am adding liver once a week. Yes most do extremely well on it but as you say we are all different. The WFPB diet works the best for the largerst amount of people and long term too though. Oils are a big problem.

 

[Iamnotarabot]

Apparently cortisol is increased during these times and this is not a state which you would want to live, unless you are a child having seizures, where it would be the least damaging senario compared with having brain damage. Raised cortisol increases the risk of cancer. It will be interested to hear how these keto gurus do long term, like when they get to old age. We do not have much information about this up till now and I am not about to make myself one of these experiments. That is apart from Eskimos who apparently do not live long lives.

The McDougall Newsletter

I dont see how eating polluted (because everything is nowadays) bread or pasta could increase my health,same from the fruits, and its basically the things you get rid off when you are in a keto diet.(I take few supplement I admit)

In addition this is not a link related to keto but to a specific diet linked to a specific way of life.
Moreover, 3.100 calories a day, escuse me ? The entiere point of keto and intermitent fasting is to eat less, sure if I eat too much calories well my body will store it and my health will be worse.

And yes too much fish isnt good nowadays because of the pollution, and about cortisol, well you can find other people saying the exact opposite of what you just said so I just dont know.

very low carbo diet to start with. It went well at first then I ran into problems and very much regret doing it as it made me insulin resistance and gave me gall stones.

I bet you eat too much proteins, especially lean protein, without enought fiber.


Nothing about diet should be taken lightly, especially when it involves changing habits you had for decades, but we clearly underestimate how bad our high carb diet is , especially when you combine hight carb/hight fat.

My mother always said that the problem with the pasta isnt the pasta itself but the butter you put in it, well turns out is actually the opposite hehe.(consuming fat during an insulin spike make you store it more directly, while eating fat with a low level of insulin does less, and this is true that insulin itself isnt the problem but overeating is, but at the same time insulin is the hormone that makes you more likely to overeat, iv seen contradictory information about it online but for myself this is how to works,)

I did some research because I hear and see a lots of people doubting about it so it makes me doubt aswell, but for instance the study I saw online trying to proove that not eating carbs is beneficial well it just compares 2 diets that are bad and too hight on carbs and low on fat anyway.
They try to criticize the keto diet without using a study actually testing it.

 

[Dias]

Wow. This is a lot of information. Thanks.
I am vegetarian and practically vegan. I am also gluten free.
Sometimes I do 24 hour fasting.
But I have to cut down the sugar...
I feel much better since I introduced these changes in my diet.
Generally all processed and overly cooked and seasoned food makes my body and mind more confused and agitated.
That is all the extend of my experiences with diets. I have to be carefull not to go in to extremes...

 

[Mary Lyn]

I bet you eat too much proteins, especially lean protein, without enought fiber.

When I was low carb I was not eating a lot of protein - it was high fat and I was eating loads of greens and other veggies.

 

[Streetwise]

I've had several blood tests since changing to keto that checked various things and everything has improved (significantly). Obviously if that changed and the doctors highlighted a problem then I would take note. My cortisol levels were very high before I changed over, so perhaps for some people their starting level is so bad that a ketogenic diet is an improvement. Autoimmune disorders run in my family (where the body attacks itself in various ways), which may or may not make a difference. I can only go by my own experience and that of other people I know who have switched over. The 'healthy' diet that is recommended to most people would put me in hospital very quickly (and has done in the past), so I likely wouldn't reach old age for anyone to compare results. If the choice is a shorter but much healthier life compared to a very long but unhealthy life than I'll go with the first option.

hello do you know if you can maintain a ketoGenic diet! if you are a vegan? I have high cholesterol and can't eat meat anymore ,it makes me nauseous !thanks!

 

[Sid Delicious]

I'm probably not the best person to ask, as my diet is as far from vegan as you can get. But there is a Ketogenic Facebook group I'm a member of that has some medical professionals, dieticians and long term ketogenic followers on that would be able to answer that question. If you're on there, search for 'Ketogenic Diet'. I would assume you'd need to take several supplements if you aren't getting nutrients from meat/fish/dairy.

 

[Streetwise]

I'm probably not the best person to ask, as my diet is as far from vegan as you can get. But there is a Ketogenic Facebook group I'm a member of that has some medical professionals, dieticians and long term ketogenic followers on that would be able to answer that question. If you're on there, search for 'Ketogenic Diet'. I would assume you'd need to take several supplements if you aren't getting nutrients from meat/fish/dairy.

thanks

 

[Iamnotarabot]

When I was low carb I was not eating a lot of protein - it was high fat and I was eating loads of greens and other veggies.

Well maybe there is something that you don't tolerate well, I admit that keto for people who can't eat any dairy or meat it's almost impossible ( I guess it is but man that has to be very complicated)

Maybe you think you didnt eat too much protein but you did without knowing it, or maybe you didnt drink enought water, or lack some mineral/vitamins? or maybe you had another health problem prior to that and keto triggered it ; that's possible especially if you go all in , gall stones most of the times are due to a hight level of cholesterol and this isnt keto who did that.
But in the end I don't know, im glad its solved thought.

Last but not least, as I said diet shouldnt be considered lightly and changing your diet must be done in a progressive manner, for both psychological and physiological reasons, For instance I didnt go all in with a 3 days fast, I never did a 3 day fast yet thought.

But I started small by cutting one meal for a week, then another, then trying 16h , 20h,24h, 48 ( that's my record yet), but it took time.

Same for Keto, since Keto is about low carb hight fat moderate protein, I started by cutting junk food basically ( the chips fries candies and all sweet stuff) then I stopped bread, then I only used carb sources with low insulin response, then I cut carbs deeper until it was my last macro in term of calories, same it took time.

I guess if you go all in Keto after a higt carb ( especially if you already have minor health problems) your body will go in WTF mode.

In the end, I think the safest way to go keto is too start slowly , and adding some fasting window with it make the transiton easier I think.

 

[AloneNotLonely]

Not that anyone will listen, but high fat diets are very dangerous.

The reason there are positive experiences with such diets is due to the elimination of high glycemic carbs. These cause Insulin swings, which causes Insulin resistance, hunger, exhaustion, fat gain and a whole host of long term problems. Limiting high glycemic carbs while eating mostly low glycemic carbs does close to the same as a keto diet with none of the long term health consequences. Naturally you are going to feel the effects of Insulin compared to a keto diet, but it's worth it since you will not be destroying your arteries and heart.

Then there's the advantages. Leptin is a hormone that blunts hunger and various studies show that fat consumption does not have a significant effect on Leptin, while carbohydrates raise Leptin. This means that carbohydrates reduce hunger, basicly. This is often not noticed for those that are obese because Leptin is produced by body fat. So with a lot of body fat, you have a lot of Leptin. This causes Leptin resistance. So when you lose weight, your Leptin production lowers but it takes longer for Leptin resistance to be reduced. Hence leading to yo-yo dieting. But when you get to the lower levels of body fat and Leptin resistance lowers as well, then carbohydrates are very effective at preventing hunger (at a low enough body fat you are pretty much always hungry, been there done that).

Fasting has similar effects (Daily 16 hour fasts, for instance) and also helps prevent issues with Insulin when eating low glycemic carbs. Fasting blunts hunger because there's no Insulin swings. Then there's Ghrelin but that one is even more confusing. Long story short: if you always eat at 7:00, 12:00 and 18:00 then you will be very hungry at those times. If you eat at 18:00 only then once you get used to it you will not be hungry until 18:00.

So yea... No oil:

 

[Iamnotarabot]

e reason there are positive experiences with such diets is due to the elimination of high glycemic carbs.

Fasting has similar effects (Daily 16 hour fasts, for instance) and also helps prevent issues with Insulin when eating low glycemic carbs

That's very true, I could stick to that but that's in my nature to be more extreme. Keep in mind when I talk about it I always say to be carefull to take your time and to know prior to that if you dont have health issues that might cause problems.

In addition, this might be very personnal, but even with low glycemic carbs, I still had major digestive issues that I dont have anymore. But maybe intermitent fasting would have been enought and my guts needed some rest from a never ending cycle of junk food. ! That's also possible.

But This guy...He is just saying, eat nothing, lol.
In addition he is talking about oil like it workes like butter but it's been debunked 10 years ago that carbs consumption is also part of what create cholesterol issues( its an interraction between carbs and fat that we have in our daily diet most of us) It's not about fat only at all.
Its eating butter with bread ( or olive oil), easting fried stuff , eating bread every meal with dairy, or other hight fat products.

For instance, a good salad with olive oil with low glycemic carbs still might make you store fat.(Its still a matter of quantity ofc, but I had a lost of salads that I liked that I thought healthy that actually stopped me from loosing weight because we had cars in it.

Everything triggers insulin, so if you stack up low glycemic carbs it might, not put your health at risk ofc, but reduce the effect of the diet and prevent some weight loss.

 

[Fino]

Not that anyone will listen, but high fat diets are very dangerous.

The reason there are positive experiences with such diets is due to the elimination of high glycemic carbs. These cause Insulin swings, which causes Insulin resistance, hunger, exhaustion, fat gain and a whole host of long term problems. Limiting high glycemic carbs while eating mostly low glycemic carbs does close to the same as a keto diet with none of the long term health consequences. Naturally you are going to feel the effects of Insulin compared to a keto diet, but it's worth it since you will not be destroying your arteries and heart.

Then there's the advantages. Leptin is a hormone that blunts hunger and various studies show that fat consumption does not have a significant effect on Leptin, while carbohydrates raise Leptin. This means that carbohydrates reduce hunger, basicly. This is often not noticed for those that are obese because Leptin is produced by body fat. So with a lot of body fat, you have a lot of Leptin. This causes Leptin resistance. So when you lose weight, your Leptin production lowers but it takes longer for Leptin resistance to be reduced. Hence leading to yo-yo dieting. But when you get to the lower levels of body fat and Leptin resistance lowers as well, then carbohydrates are very effective at preventing hunger (at a low enough body fat you are pretty much always hungry, been there done that).

Fasting has similar effects (Daily 16 hour fasts, for instance) and also helps prevent issues with Insulin when eating low glycemic carbs. Fasting blunts hunger because there's no Insulin swings. Then there's Ghrelin but that one is even more confusing. Long story short: if you always eat at 7:00, 12:00 and 18:00 then you will be very hungry at those times. If you eat at 18:00 only then once you get used to it you will not be hungry until 18:00.

So yea... No oil:

I feel irrational guilt for listening because you started out saying, "Not like anyone will listen."

But thank you for the information!

 

[AloneNotLonely]

Reading is one thing, but in my experience people just don't believe it. I've told a family member this. Still wouldn't listen after a heart attack and prefers to be on medication than to adjust the diet. It's just a matter of time before the next one hits.

Fat doesn't trigger Insulin. Neither does Fructose. So no, not everything triggers Insulin.

Carbs do not create Cholesterol issues. Cholesterol is absent in all plant foods, no plant food raises Cholesterol. Cholesterol is only increased by eating more Cholesterol which is only found in animal products. Otherwise your Cholesterol will be very low at the level that your body naturally produces (I eat 20%/75%/5% P/C/F and blood tests always show very low Cholesterol).

You also don't seem to understand how fat storage works. All dietary fat is preferentially stored as body fat. That's pretty much all your body does with it apart from it's essential usage in building cells for essential fatty acids, vitamin/mineral absorption and a few others. Around 10-15g of these essential fatty acids is needed so a total of 30g (15g omega 6/15g omega 3) is the most you'll ever need.

If you eat too many carbs, but you don't eat enough fat for your body to store then your body will start attempting to increase energy expenditure first. This can be increased BMR, fidgeting, the works. After that it will turn the carbs into fat through De Novo Lipogenesis. Realistically this doesn't really happen except on a diet of soda pop. My triglycerides are on the low side even with my el retardo levels of carb/fat. So very little De Novo Lipogenesis is going on. This means that high carb/low fat is very good for losing weight as long as you make sure you keep the triglycerides low so you don't wreck your liver. Carbs are not responsible for weight gain, it's fat that gets stored while the body uses carbs for energy. If fat is gone, the body can go through some weird hoops to generate fat but it's not the usual pathway. People have been hopping around this issue for ages claiming certain macros allow you to eat whatever you want but it's pretty simple: Energy in vs energy out. There is no way to break it, the best you get is increased BMR from high carb/low fat.

Then there's Gluconeogenesis. This is the conversion of mostly protein into Glucose. Basicly tissues in your body get broken down in order to maintain Glucose needs. This is why bodybuilders on a Keto diet will eat a lot of protein, it's actually why protein requirements are increased when dieting in any form (Gluconeogenesis is the main pathway for generating energy when no food is consumed). It doesn't happen during short fasts (hard to pinpoint, 16 hours is 100% safe, might be as much as 48 hours) but during long term energy shortage it will happen. So during your long fasts, your body is basicly cannibalizing itself for fuel. Same with Keto on insufficient protein. Carb intake prevents Gluconeogenesis. I mean you can either eat Carbs or Protein, but the result is the same. If you eat neither your body will start breaking down your organs and muscles to get it. Ketosis itself is just an adaptation to fight starvation. To make Ketosis your goal is kind of pointless as it doesn't do anything (well except preventing you from passing out).

So your whole theory of carbs + fat = body fat is false. If you eat no fat and all carbs but too much calories, you get fatty liver and get fat anyway. If you eat all fat and no carbs and too much calories, that fat is stored as fat and you get diabetes and heart disease and get fat anyway, whether you are in Keto or not. Your body gets the carbs it needs anyway.

Then the digestive issues... You've been spending most of your life eating fatty predigested food (processed food) and you think it's strange your body doesn't know how to handle unprocessed carbs? Whatever isn't used gets shut down. You need to start with very small amounts and slowly build that up. Fiber is digested by bacteria in your colon, those bacteria aren't there if you haven't been eating Fiber so if you eat a ton of that at once, without the bacteria there to help you process it... well... it isn't pleasant. I've had these issues myself after doubling my lentil intake without thinking about my colon.

 

[Mary Lyn]

Well maybe there is something that you don't tolerate well, I admit that keto for people who can't eat any dairy or meat it's almost impossible ( I guess it is but man that has to be very complicated)

Maybe you think you didnt eat too much protein but you did without knowing it, or maybe you didnt drink enought water, or lack some mineral/vitamins? or maybe you had another health problem prior to that and keto triggered it ; that's possible especially if you go all in , gall stones most of the times are due to a hight level of cholesterol and this isnt keto who did that.
But in the end I don't know, im glad its solved thought.

Last but not least, as I said diet shouldnt be considered lightly and changing your diet must be done in a progressive manner, for both psychological and physiological reasons, For instance I didnt go all in with a 3 days fast, I never did a 3 day fast yet thought.

But I started small by cutting one meal for a week, then another, then trying 16h , 20h,24h, 48 ( that's my record yet), but it took time.

Same for Keto, since Keto is about low carb hight fat moderate protein, I started by cutting junk food basically ( the chips fries candies and all sweet stuff) then I stopped bread, then I only used carb sources with low insulin response, then I cut carbs deeper until it was my last macro in term of calories, same it took time.

I guess if you go all in Keto after a higt carb ( especially if you already have minor health problems) your body will go in WTF mode.

In the end, I think the safest way to go keto is too start slowly , and adding some fasting window with it make the transiton easier I think.

I was not a vegan keto, though there are plenty of them - yes you can do it. I was already eating a very healthy diet beforehand with loads of veg. no processed foods. My supermarket trolly always looked so different to everyone else's as I have had to be on a health kick for so long. So I did not come into this from SAD.

The reason why keto/AIP did not work for me was because I have Hashimotos and low carb does not work well with that. My endocrinine system is very much out of whack so I ended up making more cholestrol when my thyroid levels went down causing gall stones. since I quit that diet and went high carb from fruit, I have never had so much as a twinge.

I always make sure I drink enough distilled water and no I was not eating too much protein and was always looking out for deficiencies. I am very knowledgeable now about personal dietary requirements.

I know many keto fans do not like to hear that the diet does not work for some, and even more so to hear that there are dangers with it for example with raised cortisol but there it is.

One thing I have heard is that cholestrol comes from food and that if you are not eating it, as I have been for the past year - your cholesterol will go down. Nope. Mine and my tri's are still high.

 

[Iamnotarabot]

Fat doesn't trigger Insulin. Neither does Fructose. So no, not everything triggers Insulin.

I didnt mean that, I meant even food with moderate amount of carb triggers insuline and also protein. Sorry, But what I meant by that kinda proove my point.

I didnt say plant based diet is bad per say, it seems to restrictive IMO and how the guy on the video justify it is already proven wrong, I was expecting something else than "oil make you fat because reasons."

IMO this is something for people with realy important health problem.

You know some people realy overwiehgt and putting their life at risk heavely just stopped eating for weeks and months and it cured their weight issue. If I do that I die, but I respect that different persons may need a different diet.
I'v always eaten low glycemic carbs and they always messed up my guts,and 1H after the meal I'm hungry , at the moment my diet is composed of fat from all sources, (not 500kcal of oil), protein and green, and I feel so much better, When I eat I dont feel tired anymore, And I have better performance in sports on a empty stomach, that's how I work, I dont say it works for everyone.so I stick to it.
The typical western diet since I'm a kid is probably what contributed to make me miss maybe half of my life at school, Always sleepy , tired and not there, because always messd up by digestion.

Now We are all different and I can totally understand that for others It might be a wrong diet.Because they dont have the same digestive issues than me or they might have another health problem, be carefull !

 

[AloneNotLonely]

He didn't say oil makes you fat. He said that all fat causes heart disease. Proven through Angiogram in humans and dissecting monkeys. There is no research that disproves this. The only thing that happens with unsaturated fats vs saturated fats is a change in cholesterol ratio. As shown in the research quoted by Esselstyn, this cholesterol ratio does not have an effect on the progression of heart disease. Butter and olive oil have exactly the same effect.

Furthermore, this goes for all humans. Are you a cat? Or a dog? Or a tiger? Then yea, your body does work differently. But if you are a human then excess fat gives you heart disease.

If you don't want to change your diet or believe this then that is fine, but you will develop heart disease to a certain extent.

 

[Fino]

So is fat the same as cigarettes, in that a single cigarette has a negative impact, or is it only excess fat that increases risk of heart disease? Or would it be unhealthy to have too little fat?

I'm wondering because I have trouble eating enough, so excess of anything would be unlikely, but I was under the impression that I should purposely eat a certain amount of "healthy fats".

 

[inkfingers]

Weren't you super hungry?