How to seek faith despite logic

[Aspergirl4hire]

Victor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning is short, pithy, and well-informed. If the name is not familiar, then know that he survived German concentration camps and talks about the role of faith and connection in a suffering community.

I'm eyeing a book that compares the sayings and sermons of Jesus of Nazareth, Lao-Tzu, and the Buddha. (In a nutshell--they're very similar.) I've actually seen two versions of this book: one focuses on Jesus and the Buddha, the other on all three plus an additional founder (Mohammed, or else an Indian faith, I don't recall which).

 

[NateSean]

Yes it took years, but I reject the notion that logic and faith are incompatible utterly....but then my God isn't based on arbitrariness but rather natural law.

My personal philosophy has always revolved around the fact that God, Goddess, or whatever you choose to call it gave us a brain for a reason. If you look through all of the stories of the Bible for example, the main characters were always the mouthy ones.

God didn't just pick any random person who would blindly do as He asked them without question. He wanted someone who would see a burning bush and still have the wherewithal to say, "Yeah, I'm not so sure about this."

 

[RidingDutchman]

For me, I don't believe in anything at all, but do believe what spiritual books like the bible try to teach.

Love your fellow man, don't do anything to other that you wouldn't want them to do to you etc.
To me the stories in the bible are just deep ways of telling it with an entertaining story around it and the miracles I take figuratively.
Like I don't believe one can feed a village with one bread, but I read it with the ideal to share what you have with others, so everybody can be healthy and prosperous.

So spirituality is important and I really do like the stories and ideas about it, but religion is something I personally can't understand because it contradicts logic and common sense.

You can't turn water into wine, but when times are bad you can focus to see the good things in life. Turning water into wine is bogus but everybody knows what to do when life gives you lemons. If more people would live by these sort of "social rules", life would be a lot better for everybody.

I hope I didn't offend anybody with this, It's my personal view and if people do choose to believe these miracles really happened, that's their choice. As long as they don't try to force me in believing it as well.

 

[Maelstrom]

Sounds interesting

It all comes down to this question is the Death spoken of by God in Sin referring to the judgement... or is it really referring to the Natural chaos and damage hidden in these human relations laws.

I say the correct meaning of the word (Sin), is self destructive thinking and destructive actions towards others.

For example in africa your neighbor covets your cow? You say so what...then one day he is sharpening his Machete and you are late to work and forget to say Hi... now you as a agnostic, get to pray your car will start before he reaches you with that Machete...

All these rules are a joke until it is your turn to take the hit, your bank account that is gone, your wife or girlfriend affections are taken, your car you saved your pennies for gone.
It's always a joke until it is your turn to lose.

So is God trying to protect us from natural laws of destruction? Or do we all want to want to slap divine preference on it all, so we have wiggle room for personal preference inside and outside the church?

And if the laws are natural? that means they are unchangeable, so what do we do about all these changes in different churches? a absolute law is not a salad bar, is it?

 

[clg114]

I should not do this. I know I should not discuss religion or politics. Please know that I am not trying offend anyone.

I have a very logical and analytical way of thinking. I did not choose to be like this, it is just the way that I am. As we all know, science and religion disagree on many things. When I look at these disagreements, I always agree with the science. This is because the science view always makes the most sense to me. It is only natural for someone to believe what makes the most sense to them. Everything that I believe to be true, my priorities, and almost everything that I do is based on logical thought and what makes the most sense to me. Consequently, I am not a religious person and I have faith in what I believe to be true.

That being said, I would never judge someone because of their religion or try to change their views about their religion. People need something to believe in and having a strong belief structure is very important. We all should be able to believe in what makes the most sense to us.

 

[Nisk]

It all comes down to this question is the Death spoken of by God in Sin referring to the judgement... or is it really referring to the Natural chaos and damage hidden in these human relations laws.

I say the correct meaning of the word (Sin), is self destructive thinking and destructive actions towards others.

For example in africa your neighbor covets your cow? You say so what...then one day he is sharpening his Machete and you are late to work and forget to say Hi... now you as a agnostic, get to pray your car will start before he reaches you with that Machete...

All these rules are a joke until it is your turn to take the hit, your bank account that is gone, your wife or girlfriend affections are taken, your car you saved your pennies for gone.
It's always a joke until it is your turn to lose.

So is God trying to protect us from natural laws of destruction? Or do we all want to want to slap divine preference on it all, so we have wiggle room for personal preference inside and outside the church?

And if the laws are natural? that means they are unchangeable, so what do we do about all these changes in different churches? a absolute law is not a salad bar, is it?

I think I get it sort of.

 

[Maelstrom]

I think I get it sort of.

Of course I don't believe the traditional view of eternal Hellfire is correct either, so my God mostly is a nice wise old person trying to teach babies not to stick the hand in the fire...a decidedly more pleasant view in my opinion.

 

[Nisk]

so my God mostly is a nice wise old person trying to teach babies not to stick the hand in the fire...a decidedly more pleasant view in my opinion.

I like that analogy

 

[Maelstrom]

I like that analogy

You are welcome, years of angst and thought to reach that pearl...but slow wisdom is better than none.

 

[MEDL86]

My personal philosophy has always revolved around the fact that God, Goddess, or whatever you choose to call it gave us a brain for a reason. If you look through all of the stories of the Bible for example, the main characters were always the mouthy ones.

God didn't just pick any random person who would blindly do as He asked them without question. He wanted someone who would see a burning bush and still have the wherewithal to say, "Yeah, I'm not so sure about this."

And that's what people tend to forget; That god gave us a brain for a reason, so that we could think for ourselves, be responsible for ourselves, and ultimately make our own decisions (free will).

 

[donn]

"Only as an aesthetic phenomenon are existence and the world eternally justified." Nietzsche, The Birth of Tragedy

I like to say that I'm an atheist with no spirituality, but an intensely religious mindset - just so I'm not lumped in with the "not religious but sort of spiritual" crowd. By combining Freud's and William James' definitions along with my own studies, I define the religious mindset as the study of the relationship of consciousness with the ego and the transcendental.

There is absolutely no bar to this study in a logical mindset - in fact, a highly logical approach at the outset is very useful. If you are looking for an idea of God or something greater that isn't explicitly based on theistic myths, I heartily recommend a crash-course in Vedic and Taoist teachings, followed by Zen philosophy. I would skip basic Buddhism until you've got a familiarity with the others, due to the focus on suffering of self. A dash of empiricism and a blast of 18th-20th century Germans along with that, and you've got more deep religious study (totally atheist friendly) than any human could ask for.

At the end of the day, I heartily believe art is a better metaphor for life than logic is, but they are not in opposition. It took me about six years of study before I arrived at that point, and I've loved every second of it.

 

[donn]

Oh, and if you are really down to get into something heavy on the limits of logic, language, and knowledge, check out the ideas of Ludwig Wittgenstein and Kurt Goedel. Wittgenstein re-framed the whole field of philosophy twice and Goedel....broke math. These two geniuses are wonderful for freeing the mind from certain assumptions, demonstrating that things we take as firm and concrete are really particular matters of human perception. It was Wittgenstein in particular who helped bring me back to poetry and fiction after four years without any.

 

[Harry1965]

So, here's where I'm at now after a life long commitment to Jesus.

95.5% of the universe is unknown and now called dark matter.

Of the remaining 4.5% we know only as far as our space craft have travelled and what we can decipher so far from our own planets weird behaviours.

We can't collect enough data and we can't properly process the data we have.

We can't step out of our universe to observe it.

So all that's left is belief.

On both the scientific and spiritual sides.

We choose what we want to believe.

I choose to belief in the after life.

Why?

Because our date system revolves around a "dead" guy.

There's only a few people who have pulled this off (their birth or death dates and their followers continue to base their calendars on these people long after their leader's death).

I can think of Jesus and Mohommad(SP?) but I'm sure there are others.

Jesus promoted peace and love and free living (all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial).

The others were all about keeping rules to please God to get to an after life.

I choose to believe Jesus bridges the gap between this world and the next.

I want to promote love and peace not keeping rules. Just like Jesus did.

He was/is a rule breaker and a friend maker.

That's what I choose to believe.

I hope it's true and if it's not, I still get to live a life worth living by loving those I'm with.

Peace.

 

[Gordy]

Here is my take on this issue:

Most religion is based on you having to accept someone elses doctrinal position even if you do not agree with it. This is why most religions get involved in legal type argument based on some sort of logic. Like Christians using secular histories to prove Jesus existed. Or using logical legal type argument for penal substitution.

I prefer to have a less nailed down version of Christianity that is based on personal knowledge - so if I don;t really think something is true I just don't go along with it.

Of course this guarantees I will never fit into any church situation, but that is life.

 

[DC1346]

I understand that "faith" means to believe something despite logic or proof, but it's something I have trouble with. Not that I wouldn't like to be "faithful", or that I don't try, it just is hard for me.

This is my problem as well. I like Christian social mores and have had an on again and off again relationship with Protestant churches but in the end, it all comes down to a spiritual leap of faith.

Did Christ exist? Absolutely. The Romans documented his existence along with his trial and execution. In 64 AD, the Roman historian Tacitus even referenced the persecution of Christians by Emperor Nero by explaining how Christians had derived their name from a historical person named Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He went on to say that Christ had "suffered the extreme penalty," a reference to the crucifixion that was used as a particularly painful method of execution.

Was Jesus Christ the son of God?

(sigh)

Therein lies the problem for me with faith ... ANY faith. Since I am very literal minded, I simply haven't been able to make that leap.

 

[Aspergirl4hire]

Oh, and if you are really down to get into something heavy on the limits of logic, language, and knowledge, check out the ideas of Ludwig Wittgenstein and Kurt Goedel. Wittgenstein re-framed the whole field of philosophy twice and Goedel....broke math. These two geniuses are wonderful for freeing the mind from certain assumptions, demonstrating that things we take as firm and concrete are really particular matters of human perception. It was Wittgenstein in particular who helped bring me back to poetry and fiction after four years without any.

Ah, the Goedel of Goedel, Escher, Bach. Yes. I appreciate this post very much! And now feel I should reread the book.

 

[Harry1965]

I totally agree it's all about the leap of faith.

Even in astronomy ... Do I still believe, or do my eyes deceive that image (so small) of the heavens (so huge) from something so easily fooled (the human experience/sensor)?

 

[Maelstrom]

I totally agree it's all about the leap of faith.

Even in astronomy ... Do I still believe, or do my eyes deceive that image (so small) of the heavens (so huge) from something so easily fooled (the human experience/sensor)?

It's not such a leap of faith as you think true science and logic and natural law are in harmony with God. The great leap is to be able to set aside old traditions and habits and try to live in the natural law of long term welfare for us and others...we are by nature short term thinkers...strictly speaking more of us are trying to grab the cookie off the plate and run...than we would care to admit. But under natural law sooner or later a fist comes looking for a interest payment on that stolen cookie.

There is some hidden magic tho when you make that shift from me..me..me.. to what would God do? what blessing can I be to the world?