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Flexible?

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BruceCM_Aspergic

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Only one example. On the one hand, I'm told I've got to be flexible. Most things said aren't flexible but that's somehow irrelevant. If I point that out, it's proof that I'm not flexible. Or if I say I try to be, it's dismissed. Or it'll be pointed out to be 'an Aspie trait'. Although any supposed Aspie traits I want to say I have, suddenly, we're all individuals. Funny, isn't it? Is it remotely possible to get anywhere with such nonsense, please?
 
Such nonsense is a socially accepted emotional behaviour - extremely lacking in thorough logical process. So the only way around this garbage is to accept the only natural fact: The mere idea that they have informed you to be flexible means that they perceive (correct or not) you to be inflexible and have made you out to be (even if only partially) their opponent. In other words, "these be fighting words". If you try to stab back with ANY response whatsoever you are automatically fueling the fire. So the real and honest truth to this: there is no right answer. Well...

I have an approach that seems to work here, I tend to appreciate unique creativity in situations like this =)

Bend down and touch your toes. Yup, that is right. Shame them. Do it with a smile. Say, "See! I am flexible!" and then just keep smiling. Smiling is somewhat key. You could really piss someone off doing this with a really serious face. By smiling you lighten the mood. And by twisting their words, you take the blow away and potentially break up the 'fight'. I've trained this to be something of an instinct to me - being 'cute' and clever so as to end awkward situations and useless arguments before they carry any weight.

One last point, somewhat a deviation - DO NOT let others make you think that being an Aspie is a bad thing. You might seem to come from another planet or country compared to them, but you are smart and good at being a human in general. AS is not a disability, it is something of a genetic segregation. We are our own people, we are a minority. We have our own style and it works for us. While our style may not always jive with society, other people need to realize that it is not always important if we are 'normal' or 'like them'. If normal was such a great thing, why is everyone trying to be exceptional? Famous? Rich? You get the point =)
 
Ta. Glad that works for you. Don't think I can relate to people who are just trying to pick fights, though. When there's SO many such things and it's presented by 'serious' seeming counsellors, etc, as much as normal people. I was never trying to do anything like that to anybody else!
 
Well if you got a situation like you are being told by a counsellor that you are not flexible, you should consider that you either are not being flexible or that their opinion does not matter. If their opinion does not matter, then just shrug it off and move onto whatever is next.
 
Keep coming across it and plenty more with most people. But can't find how to do anything about it. As not at all clear what they're on about, usually. It's surprisingly like 'denial'. Where somebody accuse you of something and if you 'deny' it, that's somehow proof you did it. If going to do that, might as well accuse me of serious stuff! Make it mass murder, rape, etc, then. Can't be bothered with such stupid disputes otherwise.
 
This may not be a great answer, but you have put into words something that I've been pondering for quite awhile. If I am reading your post correctly, you seem to be dealing with two things within the one situation.

First, the actual "flexible/inflexible" way of reacting to things (which I am still also trying to nail down).

And second (which I believe to be more important), is how to deal with it when someone tells you that you are being inflexible or that you should be more flexible.

So, by trial and error and scripted scene watching (television, plays, books, etc), I have learned this: responding directly to their query or statement is fairly ineffective. I have a really hard time with changing this behavior in myself, even though I know that it's ineffective. It's so natural to come back with "I am being flexible!" or "I'm not inflexible!" or "I"m trying!", but it seems you get the same reaction I have gotten, where people just act as though your response is immature and you're just defensive (and, well, it is a little defensive when I do it, I know). So that's the trial and error part.

What I've seen in scripted interaction (and nonscripted, occasionally--often between my sisters when I'm not involved), is that people don't have to respond directly to what was said. It's communicatively appropriate to respond to such statements with questions, or to say something totally unrelated (though I would not suggest "well you're not all that flexible, either", because then you're just fighting back, and the other person will still dismiss anything you have to say--or at least that's been my experience). Anyway, what I've been trying to do is, when someone tells me I need to be more flexible, respond by asking, "And how would you propose I do that?"

This does two things: First, it puts the focus back on the other person, rather than on you. Second, it forces them to list specific behaviors that they want to see, giving you a concrete example of how to do something as abstract as being "flexible". Since being "flexible" is abstract, everyone has a different concept of it--so each person's answer will probably be similar, but have some discrete differences (that's just a guess, based on some of my experience).

This will help you with the first issue that seems to be here, the one that caused the statement to be generated from the other person: a set of behaviors that has been determined to be "inflexible." As they list how they would like you to be more flexible, it'll be easier to understand what they actually want to see, rather than some stupid statement about being "flexible."

Does this make any sense at all? Is it helpful?
 
Thanks. Whether it'll help probably depends. Sadly, it isn't just that one eg, in general socialising. That's really the problem. It's just one eg of a very difficult and complicated area which is generally expected to be fairly easy. I mean, nobody's supposed to be perfect at it. Then, of course, by accident, I have, sometimes asked what to change. Now, for instance, I'm getting told to 'just walk away from discussions that are getting "too deep"'. I've no idea how to decide that. And it seems to go against what I'm told about avoidance. Inevitably, the person saying to walk away hasn't heard much about that and thus criticises me for not being able to take their advice. Basically, there are lots of things like that and I never get anywhere with them. Suddenly, I'll be complicating things to merely refer to some previous ideas. Only they seem relevant and nobody can say why not. Apart from claim about context but I don't find out what they mean and how to tell, etc, etc. Just get done for asking too many questions and going on about it too much.
 
Hmm, sometimes, the way to figure out where socializing is breaking down is to take what you want, define it explicitly, list the steps to getting there, and then identify what is getting in the way. It's so important to be honest with yourself--it's easy to say it's the other person (and really, most of the time, it actually is), but you can't change the other person, you can only change your own behavior.

I do not want you to think that I'm trying to say that you should change who you are for somebody else. You are not here to meet anyone else's expectations.

However, it is possible, and I think good, to change yourself to make yourself happier. If there's someone you know, or a character you've seen, whom you really like and would want to be like, it's okay to try to be like them. I wouldn't say to try to be them 100%, but there are some situations where these characters handle similar situations in a way that works out for them. Try doing it that way. Sometimes it will work out for you, but I can say from experience that sometimes it won't. I can't give you any 100% sure fire answers to this one, especially since I'm still figuring it out for myself. I can only tell you what has worked for me.

Sorry this is scattered, but here's an example of my thought process from the first paragraph:

What do I want? I want to be friends with Rachel.
How do I do that?
1. I get Rachel to like me: (the following is NOT a heirarchy).
  • a. I invite her over once or twice.
  • b. I cook her dinner (or otherwise show hospitality).
  • c. I listen to her.
  • d. I initiate conversation
  • e. I allow her to initiate conversation and invitations.
2. I get to know Rachel.
  • a. I remember what Rachel told me.
  • b. I remember her likes and dislikes.
  • c. I keep her secrets, should she tell them to me.
  • d. I show Rachel that I trust her by sharing slightly more personal information with her.
  • e. I learn what makes Rachel laugh

3. I engage in what is important to Rachel when I am with her.(and if Rachel is my friend, at this point, she will care and will also be engaging in what is important to me)
  • a. I let her choose the activity we do together
  • b. I let her choose what we eat
  • c.I share my opinions about what is important, and I listen to hers.
  • d. I do things that I may not want to because Rachel wants to do them, but I make sure that I am having fun anyway.


Keep in mind, there's no way to define friendship, even by listing all the different behaviors you do when you are in a friendship. The list was overly simplistic, and there would be further information about not doing things she dislikes (though, if they are an integral part of who I am, then maybe her friendship is not worth having). Some problems with this is that it also depends upon the other person reciprocating the relationship. It's important to stay in that first part until you are pretty sure that it is reciprocated. Also, I've found that some people are easier to socialize with than others--I find it easy to become friends with people who have ADHD, but it's hard for me to maintain friendships with them (we end up driving each other crazy--it ends up being that they're too impulsive and unpredictable, and I'm too stubborn and detached). People who are labeled as "nerds" or "geeks" are really easy for me to make friends with. With others on the autism spectrum, or who have traits of Asperger syndrome, it can be really hit or miss. With the girls who seem "popular", it's almost always impossible. They're often so wrapped up in themselves and their silly social to-do's that when I step out of that social norm circle (which is often), they're quick to give weird looks and avoid me. Oh well, their loss. I've been told by several that I'm a great friend. If they want to exclude me, it's their problem and I'll move on with my life.

Woo, rant.

Hopefully that was helpful and not just a ranty-rant.
 
Great. Mostly, though, I can't see how people decide what to say and there's very different reactions when I say the same things. Of course, I don't know what 'way' they're saying it or how it's coming across to the other. I have spent years socialising, by the way. So, even if there was anybody I wanted to be like, it seems unlikely I'd be able to do as you suggest. Sorry about that. What happens if, after you made friends with somebody, you still can't discuss much that matters to you, for various reasons? How long do you carry on chatting about all the stuff they like, that you've no interest in?
 
In a good friendship, that "chatting" would be reciprocal. They would listen to what you have to say at the same time in the relationship that you would be listening to what they have to say. And in order for it to really be a friendship, you need to take an interest in what they have to say. Being interested and asking questions about what they have to say is part of forming that relationship, and they should try to do that with you, too. Unfortunately, even many NT's don't have this skill, most likely because today's society, worldwide, is very self-centered. Really, "chatting" is something acquaintances do, and friends do only occasionally, or if it is part of a routine. In order for it to really be a friendship, you both need to offer up things that matter to you, even if that makes you vulnerable or feel uncomfortable. If you don't think you can trust them, then you need to think about whether it's a friendship that is worth keeping.

If being like somebody you know is not something you think you could or even would want to do, that's okay. Again, there are characters that you can imitate as well. Look and see what works for somebody else, and try to imitate that. I have an example, if you would like it, but I"m trying to avoid more very very long posts.
 
Didn't I say I can't see, really, what people are doing, in conversation? As I don't know how they decide to say what they do, if it isn't the sort of reply I'd give. Or what way it's coming across and I've no way to imitate that! People talk about 'just say...', for instance, but I've no idea what that does mean. As no idea how many things I've said weren't 'just saying'.
 
I'm not really sure I'm understanding what you're trying to say. Can you tell me more about what you mean by "People talk about 'just say...' for instance..." through the end?

As for perspective taking, it's a lot easier to do with a scripted character than with a real person. Real people are ridiculously complex. To figure out intentions, you need to ask more than one "why" question. What people say tends to require more "why" questions than their behavior (not always, but often). What people say isn't always true--sometimes they know it's false (and they're lying), and sometimes they don't. Characters are meant to be complex like real people, but because they are created, they are in fact, simpler.

However, if you don't want to change your behavior, if you're happy the way you are, who am I to convince you that you should imitate someone else. You shouldn't change who you are or what you act like for anyone but yourself. Are you happy the way you are?

Just one more thing on the topic of flexibility: My advice is not the be-all and end-all, I'm struggling through this just like you, and I'm just telling you my experiences. bIf you need proof that I struggle with flexibility, here it is: Today, I had my semester review with my supervisor (2 of them), where they evaluated my progress in doing speech and language therapy with three different clients: a 65 year old who lost language due to a stroke (aphasia), an 8-year-old who was overall developmentally behind, and a 5-year-old with high functioning autism. Anyway, both of my supervisors said that I had the skills needed to do therapy independently, however, both supervisors said that I needed to be more flexible within the therapy session (Humor bit: one of them said I needed to "feel the therapy" instead of just going with my lesson plan and being so rigid, and I told her I wasn't sure I understood, and asked for an example. She laughed and said this was exactly the sort of thing she wanted me to get away from :p )
 
Yeah. Do you have enough idea what they mean to work with? I'm hardly able to advise you! This whole thing gets so ridiculous. If I understood most of it, I'd not need the help. Sorry, can't explain most of it much more.
 
well i repeat my self a lot i can never member what i have talked about ... which im glad to have a friend who understands me well he understands i can't remember certain things . he has told me he thinks i have more common sense than an average person ( if there is such thing as an average person.) also i rarely pay attentiong to facial exspressions and i can never tell if a person is serious or joking unless it's someone i know very well...
 
BruceCM said:
Ta. Glad that works for you. Don't think I can relate to people who are just trying to pick fights, though. When there's SO many such things and it's presented by 'serious' seeming counsellors, etc, as much as normal people. I was never trying to do anything like that to anybody else!
Click to expand...

This is hillarious. But I'm glad you saw the "picking fight" bs of that guy, he seems to hold bitterness not only towards females for his own insecurities and inadequacies, but towards everyone in general. Hey at least I only hate guys and I have good reason. But back to you. Don't listen to his stupid advice about touching toes and other "revenge or point proving behavior". In fact don't listen to anyone's advice here. you need to keep making your own mistakes and eventually you will come up with all the answers you need. I have seen you post question after question, then turn around and refuse any help or advice anyone has given you. Yes some of it's a total waste, like from the Krayzie poster lol. But some of it is actually constructive. So either stop asking your hopeless questions, or stop being an idiot hard headed guy for once and listen to someone who genuinely is trying to help you. One of the two will suffice. Bye.
 
krisi said:
In a good friendship, that "chatting" would be reciprocal. They would listen to what you have to say at the same time in the relationship that you would be listening to what they have to say. And in order for it to really be a friendship, you need to take an interest in what they have to say. Being interested and asking questions about what they have to say is part of forming that relationship, and they should try to do that with you, too. Unfortunately, even many NT's don't have this skill, most likely because today's society, worldwide, is very self-centered. Really, "chatting" is something acquaintances do, and friends do only occasionally, or if it is part of a routine. In order for it to really be a friendship, you both need to offer up things that matter to you, even if that makes you vulnerable or feel uncomfortable. If you don't think you can trust them, then you need to think about whether it's a friendship that is worth keeping.

If being like somebody you know is not something you think you could or even would want to do, that's okay. Again, there are characters that you can imitate as well. Look and see what works for somebody else, and try to imitate that. I have an example, if you would like it, but I"m trying to avoid more very very long posts.
Click to expand...

Krisi,

Don't avoid the long posts. I quite enjoy the. If others don't then that's on them. I would have given him very similar advice, only you put it very eloquently while I would have been extremely blunt :) Although our essays would be essays as usual :) But I stopped giving brucie advice after about the 3rd post because he continued to degrade everything I said and refused the help he claimed he wanted. So if you can get him to accept yours that would truly be an accomplishment :).
 
There'd be too many examples of me saying the same things that seem to work for others but not for me, then. When somebody else says 'please explain X...', they usually get some answer. If they say it doesn't make sense to them, they're not called negative, told they have to try it, or accused of denigrating the advice, etc. If somebody else says they didn't mean whatever they'd said to offend, insult or upset the person, it's accepted. As just a few examples. Therefore, the difference must lie in the way it comes across when I say the same things.
 
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