Connected with people

[DogwoodTree]

What do you think it would feel like to be connected with people, to truly have friends and feel like you fit in?

We always talk about how NTs have this secret social life that we don't seem to be able to tap into...what do you think they experience that we don't?

I'm wondering if maybe NT and AS experiences are actually very similar already, but the AS expectations are out of sync with reality?

I could go on about my thoughts, but I'd like to hear what you guys think first...

 

[Pondering]

That is a complicated question. Personally, I think that socializing for a lot of NTs is effortless, natural, and enjoyable. All day, every day I watch it and anylize it. Even as an Aspie, I've taught myself the essential and nuances of social rules on a basic and conscious level whereas for NTs, much is unconscious. It also depends on personality type. Introverts, although not always shy, naturally do not seek large amounts of socializing. I feel like a lot of factors contribute as a person to me for how I communicate. I knew a an aspie who was trying to tell an NT something. The NT was getting frustrated and didn't understand what the person was trying to say. Luckily I was able to interpret it to the NT in a way that was more understandable. Just as someone who learns a foreign language learns to read and write in that language, that person may be able to read the language better than they speak or write it. Same thing. As an aspie, sometimes I can read nuances of body language and hidden meaning better than I use them when I communicate if that makes any sense. Communication between NTs and Aspies are fairly similar. They aren't that different. It is a totally gray area and again, depends largely on other factors.

 

[Judge]

What do you think it would feel like to be connected with people, to truly have friends and feel like you fit in?

I can only guess. How about this? Hint: I'd be the guy on the float.

Maybe I should ask my nephew. He fits that description to a tee.

 

[Suzanne]

Have spent my life wanting this and feeling that I am a nobody because of always looking in, but never being a part.

Whilst I watch every one smiling and playing and not having the courage to join them, has been torture for me.

But now, it is getting better, because I know the reason and honestly, for the most part, I am not at all keen on nts

 

[Harrison]

I have one close friend, actually close family, who are of gypsy stock. The extended family has been settled in one place since the turn of the 20th century so they have more of an 'eastenders' quality to them nowadays.

They are incredibly close knit given their numbers, the grandmother is the matriach and everyone listens to her. I was 'accepted' by the family a few years ago although my friend will tell you that she's my carer because 'he can fall over his own shadow'. Her daughters love me and are always polite but insist on hugging and kissing me wherever they see me.

The point is this family is as social as I've ever seen, yet they fight 'in house' constantly, small stuff. Woe betide anyone outside of the family that walks into a fight thinking they can stop it because they suddenly find everyone polarised against them. The moment they leave it goes back to where they left off, it's like watching a shoal of fish or a flock of birds.

In the midst of all this is the father, who is an aspie and who lives in a permanent state of meltdown. No one in the family cares, they just move around him and he loves it. He is waited upon hand and foot, like some great leader, every whim met instantly and in return he protects everyone when it gets too rough.

If I had to belong to anyone it would be them, and I guess I do as they always check up on me if I am away more than 48 hours.

 

[DogwoodTree]

If I had to belong to anyone it would be them, and I guess I do as they always check up on me if I am away more than 48 hours.

So what does that feel like? How does that relationship manifest differently than others?

I guess what I'm getting at...just trying to define my goal. If my goal is to feel connected with people, how will I know when I've attained it? What are the specific characteristics I'm working toward?

I've been acting the part fairly well for decades. But I rarely if ever felt connected...safely...securely...known...fully accepted...treasured for ME. It's always been an act, so I never felt like anyone knew me in order to accept me. But it seems like I'm setting such a high standard for connection. Do NTs experience connection on this deeply spiritual level? Or maybe I'm just wrongly defining what connection really is?

 

[JuniperBug]

What do you think it would feel like to be connected with people, to truly have friends and feel like you fit in?

We always talk about how NTs have this secret social life that we don't seem to be able to tap into...what do you think they experience that we don't?

I'm wondering if maybe NT and AS experiences are actually very similar already, but the AS expectations are out of sync with reality?

I think it would feel so happy and fun that I wouldn't be able to get anything practical done. To just be free and totally accepted and not 'acting'? I'd probably want to spend all day stretching on the floor together and playing with each other's hair and talking about my special interests and drawing pictures and saying how we feel and what we mean. Listening to the same song 50 times....

You know when you see slumber parties on TV and the popular girls are all BFFs? I think it would feel like that...just adapted to my idiosyncrasies.

I think it would feel free.

...Does it?

 

[watersprite]

Have always had a mask, it is not sturdy, so it needs to be removed in solitude and that re-charges for the next outing.

To fit in and be accepted I can only guess that 1. I'd trust him, her or them to be honest and loyal, 2. to allow for gaps in communication, and 3. leastways accept or actually enjoy the way I walk my path, the way I live.

I think they experience a fulfillment from interaction. Almost like a smoker having a cigarette? Sometimes they want or need a more negative experience such as conflict, argument sometimes positive and it "lights their board", to use an expression I heard 30 years ago. I do not 'light up' in these interactions and conversations. So, people brand me as weird, cold, etc. as they don't feel they are receiving the kind of attention (words, body language) that they are used to and expecting.

Judge, I am wondering what you mean by you'd "be the one on the float"?

 

[Judge]

Judge, I am wondering what you mean by you'd "be the one on the float"?

I'm just thinking that Ferris Bueller seemed like the ultimate person connected to everyone else for any reason. Where all of his social contacts always turn out right no matter how precarious they may be.

Would I want to BE a Ferris Bueller?

I don't honestly know. I don't have such a frame of reference enough to even be able answer that! Though giving it more thought, I don't believe we are metaphysically here to socially "skate" through life like he does, either.

 

[watersprite]

Thanks that clears it up, as I was pondering whether you were saying you 'are' that type of person but haven't expressed it, or whether, to you, the Ferris Bueller character represents the ultimate skater-theough-human-society.

It never stops amazing me - not necessarily in a positive way - how much of general overall success in society is dependent on that ability to 'skate' along on the social connections. :/

 

[Judge]

It never stops amazing me - not necessarily in a positive way - how much of general overall success in society is dependent on that ability to 'skate' along on the social connections. :/

It simply breaks my heart because it's a standard in society that has always limited me in some way from being all that I could be or might have been.

 

[Harrison]

So what does that feel like? How does that relationship manifest differently than others?

I guess what I'm getting at...just trying to define my goal. If my goal is to feel connected with people, how will I know when I've attained it? What are the specific characteristics I'm working toward?

I've been acting the part fairly well for decades. But I rarely if ever felt connected...safely...securely...known...fully accepted...treasured for ME. It's always been an act, so I never felt like anyone knew me in order to accept me. But it seems like I'm setting such a high standard for connection. Do NTs experience connection on this deeply spiritual level? Or maybe I'm just wrongly defining what connection really is?

I actually really enjoy that sense of belonging and being cared for whilst being allowed to be me. Until I met this family I felt much as you do, with the same desire to be wanted for me. How we achieve that I don't know, for me it was the luck of meeting one person who 'brought me in'. It certainly seems like NT's have that deep connection as I've seen it in other families over the years.

 

[JKG]

...I've been acting the part fairly well for decades. But I rarely if ever felt connected...safely...securely...known...fully accepted...treasured for ME. It's always been an act, so I never felt like anyone knew me in order to accept me. But it seems like I'm setting such a high standard for connection. Do NTs experience connection on this deeply spiritual level? Or maybe I'm just wrongly defining what connection really is?

I can relate to this a great deal. Acting, performing, reaching out but never quite making full contact--and never really being seen by NTs. There's a sadness that I always carry as a result. I wish that I didn't care; it's hard to turn off the longing.

I found the cigarette analogy interesting that Kestrel shared.... And Harrison, sounds like you've hit the jackpot.

 

[watersprite]

So what does that feel like? How does that relationship manifest differently than others?

I guess what I'm getting at...just trying to define my goal. If my goal is to feel connected with people, how will I know when I've attained it? What are the specific characteristics I'm working toward?

I've been acting the part fairly well for decades. But I rarely if ever felt connected...safely...securely...known...fully accepted...treasured for ME. It's always been an act, so I never felt like anyone knew me in order to accept me. But it seems like I'm setting such a high standard for connection. Do NTs experience connection on this deeply spiritual level? Or maybe I'm just wrongly defining what connection really is?

I've been thinking about your words; because for me this all can be mystifying, and cause anxiety: not feeling safe. Maybe, what you say about a high standard and a deeply spiritual connection is also what is difficult for me. But I find it hard to analyze myself here, as I often am only aware of the fear part of it. If that makes sense.
Perhaps I'm able to don the mask for 5 or 10 minutes because I know it will be brief, I'm never going to see the person again, or like at a check out counter I know a script of sorts that works. (As long as things aren't too loud and crowded) But in a situation - speaking of myself - where there is a possibility of longer term friendship it has been impossible due to not being able nor wanting to be using the same parameters as most others.

 

[Progster]

I've had one or two close friends in the past, but have never belonged to a group of friends, I have no idea what that is like. The friends I had were ones where I truly felt I could be myself with, without the need to act, play a role or monitor my speech or behaviour constantly. Nearly all of my close friends were ones with a similar style who also, for one reason or another, didn't fit in with any social group and were alone: loners, foreigners or oddballs, one or two probably also on the spectrum. The only time I ever felt accepted into any kind of group is when I was first diagnosed and I met up a couple of times with two more aspies. I truly felt accepted by them, even though I was a lot different to them.

For me one the biggest obstacles to becoming accepted by a group is the fact that most of the socialising is based round talking, often in noisy bars, restaurants or parties. I'm not a very talkative person, and don't really like it that much. When I'm talking I feel a huge pressure, and am constantly battling the desire to withdraw into my head and not speak. It's a huge effort for me to hold a conversation. I also believe I have an auditory processing delay because I don't get what they said until a second or two after they finish speaking, so I can't process a group conversation fast enough to take in what they are saying and make my contribution before someone else responds, and the conversation moves on - it's all way too fast. Very often, the subject of the conversation means nothing to me because I don't keep up with popular culture and don't get the references. So I just sit and don't say anything, my mind drifts and I stop paying attention at all, it all flows over my head. I don't feel what the others feel - someone makes a remark and everybody laughs except for me, because I didn't get it or I don't find it funny. Another person says something else, and there is a chorus of "awww..." I don't feel that and don't automatically say "awww" with the others, if I hear it and then repeat it (with a time lag so it sounds like an afterthought and not genuine), it's through imitation rather than having this inbuilt instinctive reaction that they have. Unfortunately all of these signal a lack of interest to the group, and they either think that I'm very shy or just a boring person, so I don't get invited along the next time the group meets.

So take away the auditory delay, and sensory issues and add an inbuilt automatic response to social cues and the ability to immediately know how people are feeling because you can instinctively read their body language, that's what it must be like, but I don't have these so I'll never know what it's like. I'll always be on the outside looking in. I think that some aspies who are more outgoing and talkative may be accepted more easily into a group than someone like me who is very introverted simply because they talk more or may be fun to be with (in the positive sense), but they too will still feel this barrier between themselves and the others, and that will show in the different way the group will interact with them and vice versa, as opposed to their NT peers.

 

[DogwoodTree]

I don't feel that and don't automatically say "awww" with the others, if I hear it and then repeat it (with a time lag so it sounds like an afterthought and not genuine), it's through imitation rather than having this inbuilt instinctive reaction that they have. Unfortunately all of these signal a lack of interest to the group, and they either think that I'm very shy or just a boring person, so I don't get invited along the next time the group meets.

So take away the auditory delay, and sensory issues and add an inbuilt automatic response to social cues and the ability to immediately know how people are feeling because you can instinctively read their body language, that's what it must be like, but I don't have these so I'll never know what it's like.

Looking back over my life, the only times I can point to where I thought I "belonged" in a group are times where I felt like I was doing a "good enough" acting job that I could convince myself I didn't stand out as being too different. Other people seemed to think I "fit in", so I felt I had accomplished my goal of being "normal"...but I realize I felt this way because I was being successful at acting, not because I was being genuine. These are the relationships where I suppressed my desire to be authentic sufficiently enough to fit in.

So I can tell you from my experience anyway...when I've managed to be on top of my "game" enough so they didn't notice my differences so much...I still didn't feel any more connected than times when I was being more authentic/different/strange. Less despair perhaps...but not known and accepted for me.

So maybe the experience of being connected is nothing more than the experience of not standing out as being an oddball??

But surely, surely there is more to it than that. That doesn't seem nearly enough motivation to drive NTs to spend so much time together, to so need and enjoy each other, right??

I've managed at times to emulate well...to laugh at the right times, to touch someone's hand during a conversation to make a point, to make confident eye contact, to focus on their needs and concerns rather than rattling off about my own interests, to position my body just right so I'm not exactly mirroring anyone else but still standing with similar energy and attitude...and I still...still...still feel so far away and disconnected from everyone, like I'm not even really there but just watching through a TV camera or something.

What does it feel like to actually be there? What are the specifics of how that experience differs from what my experience has always been?

I remember as a kid always wondering what it would take to be a "real" person...to be normal. Even as young as 6 or 7 years old...I felt like TV characters were more real than I was. One time when I was invited to a girl's birthday party in the pool, I thought that maybe now I would be a real person like the other kids. It didn't work--they teased me because I didn't know how to jump off the diving board, although I worked really hard at it that day and figured it all out before the party was over. But other kids get teased, too, that doesn't make me not-real. It just felt like...no matter what I did...no matter how "normal" I acted...I still didn't fit. I always thought I just hadn't figured it out well enough yet, and kept working at it. I got pretty good at acting before I reached burnout a year ago. But I never felt "real" with people, and now even less so.

What does it take to be a real person? What does it take to feel like you exist in a relationship?

 

[cargenx75]

My whole life I have always wondered why nobody considers me their friend. Acquaintance maybe, but I have never had a close friend...and that's so lonely. I always wondered why others can form those close friendships and even if I do what I think I'm supposed to do I still have no friends.

 

[Harrison]

My whole life I have always wondered why nobody considers me their friend. Acquaintance maybe, but I have never had a close friend...and that's so lonely. I always wondered why others can form those close friendships and even if I do what I think I'm supposed to do I still have no friends.

I can honestly say that here on AC I have developed friendships that have exceeded my expectations 'out there' in the world at large.

 

[DogwoodTree]

Just a vent...seemed to fit on this thread.

The people in my small group at church know about my self-dx. There's this one guy in the group who is also one of the worship leaders for our church, and he has taken to mentoring me on guitar and worship and worship leading (all three areas are surprisingly different in their requisite skill sets). Anyway, he's been trying to encourage me through all of this stuff I'm dealing with, even though he only knows a very little bit about the different battlefronts (I haven't talked with him about the C-PTSD issues or much of the codependent family issues). I do appreciate his efforts, I really do. And I hope he continues to try to connect with me, even if it takes a while for me to figure all of this out. But he said something today that was very hurtful, even though he didn't intend it that way, and I'm just trying to process my reaction to it.

Somehow we got to talking about autism today before service, and he was saying some good things, like that a lot of the problems are caused by society's expectations rather than being inherent to AS characteristics. He said he felt like autism is more of an anxiety issue...a distraction issue...than a true disorder. I think he was getting autism and ADHD confused, so I tried to clarify that autism is more about not being able to connect...about not interacting with people the same way that most people do (among other things, of course). I told him that when I interact with people, it's like I'm talking across a football field. He said, "Well at least we're talking. Maybe it's across a football field, but there's still a conversation going on." I tried to explain the sense of isolation, of always being alone even when I'm with other people. And he said, "Well I feel connected to you...I feel like we're connecting in this conversation. So you know...." As if to say, as long as I can appear normal to other people so that they feel comfortable and connected with me, then that's all that really matters...that my experience of lifelong isolation isn't really an issue.

I know he doesn't "get it." To him, isolation is a momentary experience of saying something wrong and feeling embarrassed about it, or being shy around people until you get to know them. How can I possibly explain what it's like to have spent 41 years trying to learn the rules well enough to feel normal, and still failing miserably? ...the realization that I can never follow enough rules to feel like a real person? ...because it's not about the rules--it's about something I can't even put words to because I'm not even sure what it would look like since I've never really experienced it? ...I just know I've never really had it?

I'm trying really hard to accept his reaching out for what it was, just a friendly attempt at encouraging me to keep working at it, and keep hoping. He didn't intend to be hurtful, and everyone says stupid things out of ignorance. I'm not angry at him. I guess things like that just shine a spotlight on the inner isolation...that even when someone reaches out, and I try to be open and authentic, and still, still I'm not heard. Still I can't explain my experience well enough for someone to understand, to see what the world is like for me. People either don't hear because they think I'm exaggerating, or they just think I'm weird and move away from me.

Anyway, sorry to be so whiny. Not sure if any of this even makes any sense. I just keep trying to further reduce my expectations for connection, so maybe one day this kind of thing won't hurt so much.

 

[Judge]

Reminds me of an interview of a German man talking about how alienated he felt listening to Hitler give a speech. He described the mood of the crowd as one "big, bubbling pot". And how sad it was that he couldn't feel it.

Just a vent...seemed to fit on this thread.

The people in my small group at church know about my self-dx. There's this one guy in the group who is also one of the worship leaders for our church, and he has taken to mentoring me on guitar and worship and worship leading (all three areas are surprisingly different in their requisite skill sets). Anyway, he's been trying to encourage me through all of this stuff I'm dealing with, even though he only knows a very little bit about the different battlefronts (I haven't talked with him about the C-PTSD issues or much of the codependent family issues). I do appreciate his efforts, I really do. And I hope he continues to try to connect with me, even if it takes a while for me to figure all of this out. But he said something today that was very hurtful, even though he didn't intend it that way, and I'm just trying to process my reaction to it.

Somehow we got to talking about autism today before service, and he was saying some good things, like that a lot of the problems are caused by society's expectations rather than being inherent to AS characteristics. He said he felt like autism is more of an anxiety issue...a distraction issue...than a true disorder. I think he was getting autism and ADHD confused, so I tried to clarify that autism is more about not being able to connect...about not interacting with people the same way that most people do (among other things, of course). I told him that when I interact with people, it's like I'm talking across a football field. He said, "Well at least we're talking. Maybe it's across a football field, but there's still a conversation going on." I tried to explain the sense of isolation, of always being alone even when I'm with other people. And he said, "Well I feel connected to you...I feel like we're connecting in this conversation. So you know...." As if to say, as long as I can appear normal to other people so that they feel comfortable and connected with me, then that's all that really matters...that my experience of lifelong isolation isn't really an issue.

I know he doesn't "get it." To him, isolation is a momentary experience of saying something wrong and feeling embarrassed about it, or being shy around people until you get to know them. How can I possibly explain what it's like to have spent 41 years trying to learn the rules well enough to feel normal, and still failing miserably? ...the realization that I can never follow enough rules to feel like a real person? ...because it's not about the rules--it's about something I can't even put words to because I'm not even sure what it would look like since I've never really experienced it? ...I just know I've never really had it?

I'm trying really hard to accept his reaching out for what it was, just a friendly attempt at encouraging me to keep working at it, and keep hoping. He didn't intend to be hurtful, and everyone says stupid things out of ignorance. I'm not angry at him. I guess things like that just shine a spotlight on the inner isolation...that even when someone reaches out, and I try to be open and authentic, and still, still I'm not heard. Still I can't explain my experience well enough for someone to understand, to see what the world is like for me. People either don't hear because they think I'm exaggerating, or they just think I'm weird and move away from me.

Anyway, sorry to be so whiny. Not sure if any of this even makes any sense. I just keep trying to further reduce my expectations for connection, so maybe one day this kind of thing won't hurt so much.

No, you're not being whiny at all. We tend to hear about those NTs who want to understand and succeed. And even more so, a majority of them who are indifferent and tend to default to a rationalization that a neurological minority should abide by the majority. Which leaves the third group of NTs relative to autism.

Those who want to understand, but fail for whatever reason. Perhaps the most frustrating of all, given their good intentions. But there is NEVER a guarantee of an NT being able to grasp it all. After all, at times it may daunting just to understand and come to grips with it ourselves. Trying to explain it to outsiders? It can be overwhelming to the point where simply put, I'd rather not even try at times.