Aspies and Unwritten Rules

[Sportster]

I’ve been contemplating events in my life in light of learning I’m an Aspie and looking at my difficulty in reading people, situations, etc. One of the things with which I have difficulty is understanding “unwritten rules.” Allow me to site an example.

Many years ago, I consented to participate in a social function at a friend’s house. I had known him a couple years and worked directly with him; I also got to know his family quite well. Because of that, I was relatively comfortable being there. He invited me to a get together to play poker with a couple other fellows, eat burgers, and spend time “as men do.”

The evening went well and I enjoyed playing poker for the first time. They explained the game and how to bet. I arrived with $2.00 and finished with $12.00. My normal time to be home was approaching, so I concluded, thanked them for a good time, and started to leave. Much to my dismay, a riot almost broke out. They informed me that they wanted to get their money back. As far as I was concerned, I won, so I failed to see the problem. Was not the purpose of the game to win? My friend got me out of there in one piece, but lectured me the next day about leaving with everyone’s money. To this day, almost thirty years later, I still do not see what I did wrong.

So, am I just stupid, or is this an Aspie thing? I did not see the unwritten rule, nor did I understand why they were upset because I had broken the unwritten rule. Had I known that there would be a problem if I won, I would not have played. It has been like that my entire life. It’s as though there are things that I am supposed to know instinctively, as though I have to be clairvoyant or something. Does anyone else have this same problem? I’d like to hear what others think.

 

[Ereth]

There's no unwritten rule here, really---those guys were just sore that they didn't get a chance to try to win their money back from you. This isn't "an Aspie thing."

 

[Sev]

The evening went well and I enjoyed playing poker for the first time. They explained the game and how to bet. I arrived with $2.00 and finished with $12.00. My normal time to be home was approaching, so I concluded, thanked them for a good time, and started to leave. Much to my dismay, a riot almost broke out. They informed me that they wanted to get their money back. As far as I was concerned, I won, so I failed to see the problem. Was not the purpose of the game to win? My friend got me out of there in one piece, but lectured me the next day about leaving with everyone’s money. To this day, almost thirty years later, I still do not see what I did wrong.

It's human nature to dislike losing, perhaps it was this that triggered the poor response from them. From an outsider perspective, I feel that you were fully entitled to the money you won and I find it foolish of them to "almost riot" over $10; especially when its in the context of gambling.

So, am I just stupid, or is this an Aspie thing? I did not see the unwritten rule, nor did I understand why they were upset because I had broken the unwritten rule. Had I known that there would be a problem if I won, I would not have played. It has been like that my entire life. It’s as though there are things that I am supposed to know instinctively, as though I have to be clairvoyant or something. Does anyone else have this same problem? I’d like to hear what others think.

I don't think you are stupid, and neither do I believe that Aspies have 'stupid' natures. Unwritten rules are the foundation to all social interaction (at least from what I've found) and I would say its because of this that many Aspies struggle with social interaction. I can personally relate to being caught breaking these social conventions and then being treated similar to a criminal, as if the social laws are considered sacred. I remember reading somewhere that due to our lack of social communication when we are younger (because we are too busy with inanimate objects), we often fail to pick up social cues when we are older (and suddenly care about animate objects). Maybe it has something to with this? Though, I'm just theorizing.

 

[Turk]

Yep, I know plenty of people who that has happened to sporty. It usually revolves around the newbie factor, than, anything else. Your the new guy, whose just come in and cleaned them up. Theyre either sore losers, or trying to save face. Id hate to see what would of happened if you ripped a $50 out of them. In this case, it was a lose lose for whoever sat at the table, Aspie or not

 

[Loomis]

The only thing that might validate their reaction would be if this were a regular poker game with a consistent ending time. If, for example, they played once a month and quit at 10:00 and you got up to leave at 8:30 I could understand their reaction. You would be leaving with the bulk of the money and essentially cutting short their evening's entertainment. If this were the case, however, they should have told you about the quitting time in advance. So the failure in communication even then is on them, not you.

In my opinion you did nothing wrong; they were just disgruntled and acted badly.

 

[Aspieistj]

This is another example of not doing what they imply they will do. Poker is a betting game and there is always a winner. How are you the winner if you can't take home your winnings? Those wimps should have played with chips!

 

[Judge]

Oh yeah. I see the "sociology of a private poker game" divided into two camps.

One is to play a leisurely game with friends with the intent to pleasantly pass time and little else.

The other is to make money, which may or may not involve a coordinated effort by two or more players. Who also tend to conveniently decide by consensus when the game actually ends. And almost always involves ritualistic expectations of taking the "new guy" to the cleaners.

In hindsight I'd prefer to simply say, "Best not to gamble with friends at all." You never know when someone might lose sight of the first camp, and wind up in the second camp after so many runt hands of poker.

 

[Ste11aeres]

I think you guys should have agreed beforehand on what time, by the clock, the game was going to end. Perhaps they didn't realize it was your usual time to go, for some reason had expected the evening, with you included, to go on for longer, and thought you were leaving precisely at the time you did because you wanted to purposely bring the game to a close before you could lose anything.

 

[Autism]

I’ve been contemplating events in my life in light of learning I’m an Aspie and looking at my difficulty in reading people, situations, etc. One of the things with which I have difficulty is understanding “unwritten rules.” Allow me to site an example.

Many years ago, I consented to participate in a social function at a friend’s house. I had known him a couple years and worked directly with him; I also got to know his family quite well. Because of that, I was relatively comfortable being there. He invited me to a get together to play poker with a couple other fellows, eat burgers, and spend time “as men do.”

The evening went well and I enjoyed playing poker for the first time. They explained the game and how to bet. I arrived with $2.00 and finished with $12.00. My normal time to be home was approaching, so I concluded, thanked them for a good time, and started to leave. Much to my dismay, a riot almost broke out. They informed me that they wanted to get their money back. As far as I was concerned, I won, so I failed to see the problem. Was not the purpose of the game to win? My friend got me out of there in one piece, but lectured me the next day about leaving with everyone’s money. To this day, almost thirty years later, I still do not see what I did wrong.

So, am I just stupid, or is this an Aspie thing? I did not see the unwritten rule, nor did I understand why they were upset because I had broken the unwritten rule. Had I known that there would be a problem if I won, I would not have played. It has been like that my entire life. It’s as though there are things that I am supposed to know instinctively, as though I have to be clairvoyant or something. Does anyone else have this same problem? I’d like to hear what others think.

No, you are not stupid, regular people as they call themselves are not really normal people. They are so inept, so jealous of everything, it usually motivates me to share absolutely nothing with them.
One: it was just a game, how would the bouncers in Vegas act if those friends sat at the black jack table demanding to get their money back? Do you think those bouncers would care, no they would boot them out onto the street and laugh about it.
You dealt with kids, that is all. Aspies are usually much to sophisticated and intelligent to understand the rules of white trash, the rules of rednecks.

 

[bentHnau]

You were not being stupid. I think it's a part of poker etiquette; the winner is supposed to allow the other players the chance to win their money back, but there is no way for a new player to know that without being told(I only got the idea from something I saw on a TV show).

 

[nowwhat]

I think there's a complicated and subtle unwritten rule in play here. But it may be particular to this group, regional, national, and many other things all at the same time. I guess that a big part of it is that they play for the pleasure of interacting socially (yes, some people like this), and not to win money. What they might have been upset about was not the amount of money, but that you didn't do the face-saving gesture of allowing them a chance to win some of it back. It "looks bad" to show up the first time, win and then leave while ahead. I also think a lot of it had to do with your being new to the group.

 

[Flinty]

First, people should realize that there is a cost to poker. If it's at home, you might lose a whole two dollars, apparently. But if you're at a casino, either you're giving the dealer an hourly payment or they're taking a portion of each pot.

As far as unwritten rules in general? Well, if they're unwritten, then they're not verbalized, and of course people with ASD could have issues with those. (For me, it's the "buy gifts for every occasion" thing. It's partly caused me to not participate in occasions.)

 

[Judge]

In my observation of autistic people here and how they value friendship, for what it's worth I think it's just a good rule of thumb to avoid gambling with friends altogether. Why risk hurt feelings and alienation over a form of amusement?

 

[Ste11aeres]

In my observation of autistic people here and how they value friendship, for what it's worth I think it's just a good rule of thumb to avoid gambling with friends altogether. Why risk hurt feelings and alienation over a form of amusement?

In my family when I was a kid we had a big coffee can full of coins. Us kids would play poker with those coins. Then we always put them back in the coffee can because at that time in our lives we didn't have any other use for them.

 

[Ste11aeres]

Well, the issue isn't so much the poker game as it is the unwritten rule, or those things that NT's seem to know "instinctively." The same principle could be applied to anything in life like "You should do this . . . ," or "You shouldn't do that . . ." My entire life I've always seemed to miss those "unwritten rules" (sorry, I don't know what else to call it).

Maybe it's not just about this one incident but about a pattern of such incidents occuring over and over again?

 

[Ste11aeres]

Looking at your original post...but seriously, you won, what, $10? $10 was "everybody's money?" Are people that impoverished in your area?
This must really have been an instance of how powerful the "you may not break the social rule" thing is.

 

[asnlifecoach]

Unfortunately, we only have your perspective here and cannot get the other people's perspective. There is no way to say for sure if you broke an unwritten rule or not because if you missed it you won't know what to convey in your story. We need your friend's input in order to determine it for sure, but everything mentioned already is certainly a possibility.

 

[Ste11aeres]

I think I've totally failed in making my point. The poker game is not the issue. That was 30 years ago. I just used it to illustrate my point. All I wanted to know is if other Aspies have difficulty in seeing or understanding unwritten rules; those things that NT's seem to know instinctively. Forget about the bloody poker game!!!

You were probably hoping we would share our stories, and instead we just kept talking about yours.

 

[Judge]

Well, the issue isn't so much the poker game as it is the unwritten rule, or those things that NT's seem to know "instinctively." The same principle could be applied to anything in life like "You should do this . . . ," or "You shouldn't do that . . ." My entire life I've always seemed to miss those "unwritten rules" (sorry, I don't know what else to call it).

LOL...guess I'm not a Neurotypical.

The only reason I knew about this puzzling "custom" was from seeing it in movies and television. Probably not the best source for learning "unwritten rules" though...but then they weren't included in my user's manual either!

Stachel: "How many unwritten rules are there?"
Von Klugerman: "I don't know. No one has ever written them down." - "The Blue Max"

 

[Ste11aeres]

Well...the only reason I know there is such a thing as unwritten rules is that guys like you say there are. I'll take your word for it. I'm not aware of ever having broken any. I'm also not aware of their existence, except insofar as I trust your word.