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"But s/he looks just like me": How we confuse NT partners

Nadador

Against the current
As is my custom, I've had a thought while answering a post on another thread, and it's grown into a topic.

It's just occurred to me how bloody deceptive we Aspies can be, especially those of us who don't present as classic cases any doctor would spot from miles away. NTs find themselves attracted, perhaps for what we seem to have in common, perhaps for interesting differences they find refreshing. Things start out fine, emotions and energy get invested, then WHAM, they run up against thinking or behaviours they can't fathom and things can go sideways, fast. Or worse, the pairing goes into a painfully slow slide, with both partners struggling to bridge the invisible chasm before it all slips into the void.

We don't deceive anyone on purpose. It's just part of being an alien race with a human face, I reckon. But, good grief, it can be problematic. Devastating, even, and to both parties.

Aspies, have you had a relationship in which things started out fine, but your Aspieness became an insurmountable obstacle later? What happened? How did you handle it? What did you learn from it? Given the benefit of hindsight, could you have perhaps salvaged things? What might you have done?

NTs, have you been on the other end of such a situation? Same follow-up questions as above.

All this considered, do we have an obligation to reveal ourselves straight away when an NT shows interest?

Please note that I realise the tone of this post may come off as some sort of self-loathing, or that I am attributing all blame for the failure of AS/NT relationships to the Aspie involved. Suffice it to say that's not my intention. But let's face it...this happens.
 
I married my husband on the premise that he was going to look after me for the rest of my life; I did not know I was an aspie, let alone that I take things literally at that point, but I did take it literally and had the shock of my life, when I found that I had to take care of him! It has taken years of stress, anxiety, tears, hatred etc etc to get to the point that we just don't wish to give up.

I was not deceptive when I married him, because I did not know to the extent of my issues. And it was my husband who first alerted me to the fact that I take things literally and often says: the trouble with you is I have to say it all in one go, but I can't; it of course, would help if his first words were not controversial.

So, having been married to an nt for nearly 24 years, I have had plenty of time to adapt my life to being his wife, despite the struggles I go through and despite that he rarely wants to know that I go through them. He confuses me, because one moment, he seems so there, alongside me, in me being an aspie and then, at other times, totally different. So despite my own extremes, I do believe I am fairer in many cases, then he is!

He would say that it is hard work living with me, just as it is hard work living with him, but worth every minute of it, because when he is out all day, I do miss him terribly.

If we were at the beginning and I knew I was an aspie, I would be up front with him. I know this, because I say to him that he is well within his rights to divorce me ( I do not say it for emotional blackmail either). I know I am complicated and sometimes cry with how I can be, but he doesn't want to be released - but of course, who else will do his cooking and cleaning lol
 
I could write books about this, lol. Aspie on NT relationships as well as aspie on aspie relationships. Heck, one might even wonder if all aspies are the same type of alien.

What I learned from it? Well, considering I'm single now and doing that dating thing again (on the side when I find time next to brooding villainous masterplans *twirls mustache*). I've come to the conclusion that I don't have to put my AS out there in specific, but I like to give people a heads up on my profile in that I come with a really hefty manual written in any language but the ones you speak. People should drop expectations and let go of the norm when they want to hang out with me. I might be the best and worst thing for them to happen. And that's paraphrased from user reviews... erm... past relationships.

That all by itself poses the issue that a lot of people will glance over my profile and start running like they want to set a new world record. But it also means that the ones that don't run actually stick around for a considerable time, even if it's just to have some proper conversations, only to find out that we're not that similar.

Basically I'm leveling the playing field in my approach. I'm not pulling the aspie card but I also make sure you can't pull your NT card; NT in this case would be a more rigorous mindset based on norms and values that have little to do with personal convictions but more with "what most people do". The bane of my existence has always been "the norm".

Does this feel eerily calculating? I'm quite sure it does, but as someone who lives in a world that doesn't make any sense (to him) most of the time, I reckon I should create circumstances that work best for me, even if it's just to prevent being caught off-guard.
 
I guess that for older aspies like myself who weren't diagnosed until later in life the question refers to actual experience.

Deception would never have been my intent, however, how can we deceive when we do not know the 'why'?

My youthful years endowed me with a certain charisma, whether that was an aspie trait or not I do not know, but I do know I was pursued and chose to run quite slowly. Having read a few books now on aspergers I realise that I fell into a similar pattern of wooing a potential partner with gusto whilst sweeping them off their feet and dazzling them with charm. Then in, apparently, aspie fashion I would cease the wooing knowing the 'job' was done.

None of that was ever done with any 'evil' intent, I craved love, to be loved by everyone but without considering what to do once someone said 'I love you'.

So it was that I would go from one relationship to the next hoping to find true love and believeing I had been deceived, never seeing for one moment that I was the sole cause of my own loss. The accumulation of that over the years made me cynical, made me shun the very people that did actually love me.

In every case my partners would say one thing,"Being around you is like walking on glass". I didn't understand why they couldn't see I needed my own space at times, that I didn't want to go out at the drop of a hat, that work was more important than holidays, that all my promises were naught but smoke and mirrors.

How many wrongs do we do because we are what we are, each unique but bound to play out role laid down from the moment of our creation. Sometimes I have considered myself the half man half beast of fables, or the cursed soul wandering for eternity in search of love.

Now?

Ten years of self enforced celibacy following my aspie revelation has given me plenty of time to reflect, to grieve and to grow. No, I'm not cured, we all know we can't be cured as what we are is not an illness but a way of living. I have learnt to stop hating myself and to crawl out of the dark of my self induced exile. However, I believe I understand that way, that Tao, is no longer destructive to the people around me. At least I think that is the case.

Transparency is what I believe will make it work, my transparency that states 'I am an aspie' and this is what I am like at my worst and my best. A transparency that speaks of what I can be in certain situations and what I need in those moments. Moreover, a transparency that asks "what do you need from me?" with a soul-deep intent to fulfill it. You cannot hide in an impregnable fortress if you choose to love, because love will smash those walls and lay you bare, and in that moment if you are not ready, the only pain you will know is the pain of loss again and another heart breaks.

As a taoist I have always striven to walk the middle path of no extremes, as an aspie I know I am those extremes, sometimes faith is there to be tested, whether it is faith in some god or faith in oneself.

Time will tell.
 
All this considered, do we have an obligation to reveal ourselves straight away when an NT shows interest?

Yes. In my honest opinion. It would also help the Aspie in knowing quicker if the person is interested in learning about AS - if not then the relationship/friendship is going to be a hard road later on especially where communication is concerned.

Great topic!
 
do we have an obligation to reveal ourselves straight away when an NT shows interest?

That might be a difficult question to answer in general, because people with AS can be so different. I don't know if there is an obligation, but I would say something. Otherwise the other person might quickly misunderstand me and there would be no chance of it working. They would think that I am consciously ignoring their "obvious" hints, or giving the silent treatment to their friends because I don't like them, but that isn't the case...
 
Additional thoughts:

Take me and my Aspie friend. If I were to meet him in person, I would have to know about his Aspieness otherwise his what he calls "anti-socialness" would come off as strange. He said he used to ask questions when he was dating someone and they would get mad at him for asking. The relationship didn't work out, but I think a relationship would have if he had mentioned his Aspieness. Take us for instance, we text and I just read on a post that he feels overwhelmed with school and work and needs to be "anti-social" for a couple days to recoup. Since I know he's an Aspie, I'm fine with that and even make sure that I don't bother him so he can get back to his old self again. I don't see any negatives to telling someone that you are close to. Employers, on the other hand, I'm against unless it's completely necessary in order to perform a job.
 
Drawing from my own experiences, and from the experiences of others, I would say that for an AS/NT relationship to work, both parties need to be open-minded, and be actively working, to make it happen. You need to love one another for who they truly are, and not for who you may idolise them to be. You need to be willing to make small sacrifices, to cater for the other person, but you also need to be able to get what you need, from the relationship. Most importantly, you have to respect the person you are with, and genuinely want to be with them. I do agree with Nurse Angela, in saying that it's important for the NT to be willing to learn about AS, and adapt to understanding how to "speak the language", but I think it's just as important for the Aspie, to be willing to do the same, and to learn to understand their NT partner. It's important to see, and understand, the person in front of you, and not a collection of assumptions, based on "what is expected", or "what you have dealt with in the past". Everyone is different, so with every new relationship, we need to learn about the person we are in a relationship with. It's all about give and take. Finding, and maintaining, the balance. This is true for any relationship, though, really.
 
He confuses me, because one moment, he seems so there, alongside me, in me being an aspie and then, at other times, totally different...(edit)

I'm sorry to hear your marriage has been such a struggle, Suzanne.:rose:

I expect that many NT partners have the same dilemma yours does, with regards to his position on your AS. When a person has made an investment but is getting more than they bargained for, it must surely be a source of conflict and, I daresay, a certain amount of guiltful resentment. It's a bit like "love the sinner, hate the sin," isn't it? A very hard line to walk. The same probably goes when a partner has a mental or [invisible] physical illness.

Another trouble is, had you known to tell him you were an Aspie from the start, would he have understood what that meant till he actually lived with it? I asked if we have an obligation to disclose our Asperger's, but it's true to say that in the glow of an early relationship, it likely doesn't sound like a potential problem unless the NT has previous experience of AS.

I'm suddenly wondering if we shouldn't go about with a stack of Tony Attwood's Complete Guide, to hand out like copies of Watchtower to every potential partner. o_O


...(edit) Basically I'm leveling the playing field in my approach. I'm not pulling the aspie card but I also make sure you can't pull your NT card; NT in this case would be a more rigorous mindset based on norms and values that have little to do with personal convictions but more with "what most people do". The bane of my existence has always been "the norm".

Fair enough. There's always the flip side of my line of questioning...the ways in which a relationship with an NT may give us more to deal with than we are prepared for. If we did divulge our Asperger's up front, even with a thorough description of what it entails in our individual instance, it's still likely we wouldn't be seeing the traits our NT partner might have that would prove incompatible, early in a relationship. For example, in your case, an NT girl might not immediately reveal the extent of her tendency to conformity, then annoy you to distraction with it later. For you, different drummer that you are, that could be as big of a deal-breaker as any of your quirks might be for her.

I'd like to say that NTs should feel just as obligated to share their more potentially problematic traits up front as we are, but (1) they are unlikely to know what might be problematic for an ND person, and (2) unfortunately, NTs are socialised to hide their flaws in courtship. It's only us, for being "different", who feel compelled to be forthcoming. :cool:


My youthful years endowed me with a certain charisma, ...(edit)

Your being half-Asian and all, I'm happy to hear you were well-endowed with something. :p


...(edit) I craved love, to be loved by everyone but without considering what to do once someone said 'I love you'.

So it was that I would go from one relationship to the next hoping to find true love and believeing I had been deceived, never seeing for one moment that I was the sole cause of my own loss...(edit)

I think concepts like "true love" can be hard for us to understand, never mind to know what to do with. It's such a vague and confusing idea, love. A nebulous entity that's hard to define and interpret. I, for one, have more than enough on my hands just wrapping my head round my basic emotions, as often as not.

Now that I have a pre- and post-revelation relationship to compare, I've been trying to determine how much knowing I have AS affects the way things play out in situations with a partner. It's difficult, because the two men in question are very different, in their personalities, their expectations, and their intentions. What I'm slowly working out, however, is that having an explanation for my behaviour doesn't change things all that much. I think my partner still bears the brunt of the burden, and having a name for the problem doesn't make it any lighter. How many of us who are actually in relationships can understand our own behaviour well enough, in the moment, to articulate it in terms an NT would understand? How many of us really fit the guidebooks all that well? How far does reading about a partner's Asperger's go towards understanding the reality of living it, or towards making frustrating behaviour any less frustrating? I'm more understanding of my behaviour, now, certainly, but that doesn't always mean I can control or translate it any better. Even with good communication, I still can't fathom my partner's experience of me very well, and he can't understand mine of him.

So how do we live with our neurology being the cause of our own misery in relationships, never mind someone else's? Where is the middle path, that leads to peace and enlightenment in an Aspie-NT relationship? Is it the same for both partners, or are we ultimately each travelling on our own?


Transparency is what I believe will make it work, my transparency that states 'I am an aspie' and this is what I am like at my worst and my best. A transparency that speaks of what I can be in certain situations and what I need in those moments. Moreover, a transparency that asks "what do you need from me?" with a soul-deep intent to fulfill it...(edit)

Good answer. Once we are transparent, how much responsibility do you believe we bear for what we can't change?


Yes. In my honest opinion. It would also help the Aspie in knowing quicker if the person is interested in learning about AS - if not then the relationship/friendship is going to be a hard road later on especially where communication is concerned.

Solid point, though I have to wonder, as I mentioned above to Harrison, if a person's interest in learning about Asperger's will necessary mean they'll truly understand it, or handle it any better in reality. People enter all sorts of affiliations with enthusiasm, willingness to learn, and the best of intentions, but that doesn't mean they'll be a good fit. Is there a way for either partner to gauge potential for actual success?


That might be a difficult question to answer in general, because people with AS can be so different. I don't know if there is an obligation, but I would say something. Otherwise the other person might quickly misunderstand me and there would be no chance of it working. They would think that I am consciously ignoring their "obvious" hints, or giving the silent treatment to their friends because I don't like them, but that isn't the case...

My thoughts as well. Nicely said, and quite succinctly.


...(edit) You need to love one another for who they truly are...(edit)

Your post was lovely, all the way round. I highlight this bit because it is a particularly interesting thought in terms of my original question.

Using myself as an example, I have been wearing a mask for a very long time and it's quite complete, especially when I interact with any NT. Harrison spoke of a fortress...I suppose that for many of us, that's the purpose our masks serve. I don't know how to engage with an NT without it, my partner included. Some Aspie behaviours slip through [generally the worst ones], for the fact that I can't control them beyond a point, but the innermost parts of me are quite firmly encased. I suspect at least some of us here can identify.

It's ironic, that the masks we wear to help us engage well with NTs could well be responsible for our downfall in a romantic context. NTs would certainly be deceived by it up front, such that their initial perceptions of us on which they base their interest wouldn't be accurate. But even with time, they may not ever be able to know some of the real "us" underneath. It may simply not translate. We can share certain values, priorities, and other commonalities, but there are aspects of us that aren't accessible to an NT. I wonder how we can ever truly compensate for that so the relationship is fair, and as anyone has a secret self of one sort or another, if it's different in NT/NT pairings.
 
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Drawing from my own experiences, and from the experiences of others, I would say that for an AS/NT relationship to work, both parties need to be open-minded, and be actively working, to make it happen. You need to love one another for who they truly are, and not for who you may idolise them to be. You need to be willing to make small sacrifices, to cater for the other person, but you also need to be able to get what you need, from the relationship. Most importantly, you have to respect the person you are with, and genuinely want to be with them. I do agree with Nurse Angela, in saying that it's important for the NT to be willing to learn about AS, and adapt to understanding how to "speak the language", but I think it's just as important for the Aspie, to be willing to do the same, and to learn to understand their NT partner. It's important to see, and understand, the person in front of you, and not a collection of assumptions, based on "what is expected", or "what you have dealt with in the past". Everyone is different, so with every new relationship, we need to learn about the person we are in a relationship with. It's all about give and take. Finding, and maintaining, the balance. This is true for any relationship, though, really.
Exactly, well said.
 
Your post was lovely, all the way round. I highlight this bit because it is a particularly interesting thought in terms of my original question.

Using myself as an example, I have been wearing a mask for a very long time and it's quite complete, especially when I interact with any NT. Harrison spoke of a fortress...I suppose that for many of us, that's the purpose our masks serve. I don't know how to engage with an NT without it, my partner included. Some Aspie behaviours slip through [generally the worst ones], for the fact that I can't control them beyond a point, but the innermost parts of me are quite firmly encased. I suspect at least some of us here can identify.

It's ironic, that the masks we wear to help us engage well with NTs could well be responsible for our downfall in a romantic context. NTs would certainly be deceived by it up front, such that their initial perceptions of us on which they base their interest wouldn't be accurate. But even with time, they may not ever be able to know some of the real "us" underneath. It may simply not translate. We can share certain values, priorities, and other commonalities, but there are aspects of us that aren't accessible to an NT. I wonder how we can ever truly compensate for that so the relationship is fair, and as anyone has a secret self of one sort or another, if it's different in NT/NT pairings.

I think that everyone wears a mask. NTs included. The only difference seems to be that we Aspies tend to feel more bothered by it, as we have a strong urge to be honest, about almost everything. This is especially true for the ones we love. We can wear masks for a number of reasons. We might hide our true selves, as we have been taught to abide by certain expectations, of how to behave, what is socially acceptable, or we may hide parts of our personality, that others tend not to appreciate. I don't think there's a way to know for sure how people will react to certain aspects of you, until you show them. If you feel the risk is too great to show your loved ones, you can try revealing it to strangers first. If you're worried of unveiling your mask, in person, the internet can act as an excellent platform, for being your true self, without revealing who you are. You just have to find the right community, to test it on.
 
Solid point, though I have to wonder, as I mentioned above to Harrison, if a person's interest in learning about Asperger's will necessary mean they'll truly understand it, or handle it any better in reality. People enter all sorts of affiliations with enthusiasm, willingness to learn, and the best of intentions, but that doesn't mean they'll be a good fit.

Knowing something is better than nothing. Otherwise you're blind to what is going on with the other person. That's not to say that certain things will be easier to handle, but getting to the "understanding" part will be a little easier with knowledge of the situation. You at least have a reason of why things are the way they are. Knowing the problem can then help with some solution. There still will be rough patches - aren't there in every relationship?

I still can't figure out why some Aspie's partners can't handle the situation after a diagnosis. That totally baffles me. But they can handle what's going on before? Isn't it better to know why the person is the way they are?
 
I still can't figure out why some Aspie's partners can't handle the situation after a diagnosis. That totally baffles me. But they can handle what's going on before? Isn't it better to know why the person is the way they are?
I can understand why this would be. It's like being told you suddenly have to be mindful of X, because it's not socially acceptable. If you were to tell a woman, who is slightly over weight, that she is in fact, over weight, even though she was likely aware of this before hand, she will then be paranoid that everyone she comes in to contact with, will also be thinking this, but are simply not willing to tell her. Every time she walks in to a crowded room, and people look at her, as she enters, she'll suddenly feel ashamed of who she is. It plays on the mind.
 
I can understand why this would be. It's like being told you suddenly have to be mindful of X, because it's not socially acceptable. If you were to tell a woman, who is slightly over weight, that she is in fact, over weight, even though she was likely aware of this before hand, she will then be paranoid that everyone she comes in to contact with, will also be thinking this, but are simply not willing to tell her. Every time she walks in to a crowded room, and people look at her, as she enters, she'll suddenly feel ashamed of who she is. It plays on the mind.

I don't understand what you're saying, Vanilla. Do you mean you understand why a person would not accept the behavior more after a diagnosis?
 
I don't understand what you're saying, Vanilla. Do you mean you understand why a person would not accept the behavior more after a diagnosis?
Ah, haha, I can see why you don't understand. I misread what you had written. I thought you were talking about the Aspie not accepting this, rather than the Aspie partner. Sorry, obviously didn't get enough sleep last night :p
 
Ah, haha, I can see why you don't understand. I misread what you had written. I thought you were talking about the Aspie not accepting this, rather than the Aspie partner. Sorry, obviously didn't get enough sleep last night :p

Oh, I understand the not getting enough "beauty rest" part. I just know for myself, I would be a lot more understanding if I knew about the Aspieness. I've got my problems too, like moodiness after working the weekend without much sleep, so I would also expect my Aspie to understand some of my NT issues too. It goes both ways.
 
Knowing something is better than nothing. Otherwise you're blind to what is going on with the other person. That's not to say that certain things will be easier to handle, but getting to the "understanding" part will be a little easier with knowledge of the situation. You at least have a reason of why things are the way they are. Knowing the problem can then help with some solution. There still will be rough patches - aren't there in every relationship?

I still can't figure out why some Aspie's partners can't handle the situation after a diagnosis. That totally baffles me. But they can handle what's going on before? Isn't it better to know why the person is the way they are?
Angela, you are right. Understanding is key and very, very important. As I see it, the problem is that "most people" ether can not or will not understand. That makes successful relationships rare. Why are some partners not able to handle the situation after a diagnosis? They still do not understand. I can see that happening. I do not understand socially driven priorities ether.
 
Your being half-Asian and all, I'm happy to hear you were well-endowed with something. :p

*sighs* I shall find you a stone, but be careful of all that glass :p

I think concepts like "true love" can be hard for us to understand, never mind to know what to do with. It's such a vague and confusing idea, love. A nebulous entity that's hard to define and interpret. I, for one, have more than enough on my hands just wrapping my head round my basic emotions, as often as not.

I have no real idea what true love is although I am adopting Slithy's concept of pragma. As you say, basic emotions are hard enough.

Now that I have a pre- and post-revelation relationship to compare, I've been trying to determine how much knowing I have AS affects the way things play out in situations with a partner. It's difficult, because the two men in question are very different, in their personalities, their expectations, and their intentions. What I'm slowly working out, however, is that having an explanation for my behaviour doesn't change things all that much. I think my partner still bears the brunt of the burden, and having a name for the problem doesn't make it any lighter. How many of us who are actually in relationships can understand our own behaviour well enough, in the moment, to articulate it in terms an NT would understand? How many of us really fit the guidebooks all that well? How far does reading about a partner's Asperger's go towards understanding the reality of living it, or towards making frustrating behaviour any less frustrating? I'm more understanding of my behaviour, now, certainly, but that doesn't always mean I can control or translate it any better. Even with good communication, I still can't fathom my partner's experience of me very well, and he can't understand mine of him.

I am hoping that after all this time alone and agonising over my past conduct that I am able to understand the majority of my patterns. Obviously, I cannot prove any of that until I both engage in a relationship and have some time within it to cross reference. I know I have been better at articulating my needs and my fears in a way that is much more understandable, although Slithy may correct me on that. However, all that being said, I firmly believe that it is down to me to augment change and to be transparent in doing so in the hope my partner can understand my reasoning for it. A partnership is just that, it doesn't matter how much I wish to be the solo aspie I accept that in choosing to take a partner I have to release the need to be alone except in high stress situations such as meltdown or shutdown. Everything else is open to change, when communication is fuzzy then action has to be crystal clear.

So how do we live with our neurology being the cause of our own misery in relationships, never mind someone else's? Where is the middle path, that leads to peace and enlightenment in an Aspie-NT relationship? Is it the same for both partners, or are we ultimately each travelling on our own?

Our neurology is not our misery, how we think of our neurology and how we respond to it are. My middle path path is to accept I have two uncontrollable actions, shutdown and meltdown, but they are the result of what is going on around me. Those external factors should not be out of my control. Yes, there are times when the trigger is pushed so quickly that we miss it and reach critical mass, but on the whole I know what will trigger it and I can't expect a partner to constantly critique their actions when I know it's down to me.

Good answer. Once we are transparent, how much responsibility do you believe we bear for what we can't change?
I borrow from philosophy here, a rose knows it cannot be an oak tree, just as a fish knows it cannot be a bird. However, there are fish that can fly and rose bushes that grow like trees.

I was once told I would never walk again, that was the medical professions line and I ignored it, rose above it, and proved them wrong. Never buy into the mantra. It is frightening that I hear so much of 'aspies can't do....' that comes not from experience but because someone told them that. Fail a hundred times and call it practise.
 
My own experience in two relationships with NT's and several years post analysis of those situations, was that, because of their problems (one has, I believe, borderline personality disorder and the other, diagnosed OCD and C-PTSD), even if I'd been aware of my AS at the time, that would have done nothing to alleviate their own burgeoning problems. I have no intention of blaming it all on them, it's simply that they were unable to recognise how their difficulties affected them, despite the therapies and councelling they both underwent. I believe that my better understanding of myself now may have helped for a while then, it might have helped me avoid some arguments over my lack of understanding of situations with my first partner (though she is still incapable of seeing anything other than her own POV), but I think that the slide downhill was inevitable.
I don't believe that I'd get on better with someone on the Spectrum rather than an NT, or someone with problems over someone apparently mentally healthy.. I just think it's down to self-awareness on both sides (something both my ex's lacked, I think) and the consideration and maturity to communicate openly and honestly.. even if I or they have to calm down or process first.
I see my AS as a part of me and as such, my prospective partner should know this about me. I'll hopefully find out if it all works in the future..
 
I can't "clean". The fumes make me sick, and for whatever reason, I can't see small dirt on the floor. Big mud clods, yes, fine grit, no. My husband knew that going in. And then he forgot it after a few months and started raising Cain about how bad I was at cleaning. I did what I could, but he was never happy. He still tries to pin the cleaning on me from time to time even though now he's the one at home while I'm the one at work, but like hell am I going to do more than laundry. He's the wife, therefore he has all the cooking, cleaning, and child care. He's still getting off easy, because when I was doing it, I had all the childcare, cooking, cleaning, bill paying, grocery shopping, and I had college to do too. And I don't even chew him out every night either! (Which most of that was due to his meddling mother, but that's a gripe for another day.)

We never got past it. Probably never will. Nobody ever does, somehow my being female means I should be an expert on cleaning.
 

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