AS and codependency - anyone any experience?

[Ocarina]

Hello

I'm just attempting to unravell myself from yet another failed relationship and trying to undo the patterns that have led to this place I've stumbled upon codependency.
I'm an AS woman late 40s and for my entire life I've been working on how to get others to like me, how to fit in and particularly in intimate relationships I find myself losing myself in a quest to maintain the equanimity of the relationship. It's fine for a while until resentment builds up - I find confrontation almost unbearable and tend to just walk when it gets too difficult.

"For codependents, being open and honest in close relationships may be difficult. Instead of being assertive, initiating action, and meeting your own needs, you hide your truth, react, and feel responsible for others. You become anxious and try to manage, control, and manipulate, often by pleasing or giving advice. Some codependents turn themselves into pretzels trying to accommodate others, because they feel too guilty to say “No.”

Codependency might be with one person or everyone. It could be with your partner, or with a child, parent, or sibling. Contrary to what you might think, not all codependents are caretakers or are even in a relationship. Codependents have all different personalities, and symptoms vary in type and severity among them. There are codependents who seek closeness, while others avoid it. Some are addicts, bullies, selfish, and needy, or may appear independent and confident, but they control, or are controlled by, a personal relationship or their addiction. Sometimes that relationship is with an addict or parent or partner who is a narcissist. A relationship marked by addiction or abuse is a sign of codependency. But not all codependent relationships are abusive. "

Strikes me as a trait that isn't often associated with AS tendencies although maybe AS women are more prone but I'm not sure - anyone else experienced anything similar?

 

[Mia]

It's probably a function of age and sex and upbringing. Think there might be more female codepedents than males. Having children, and raising them can makes you more reliant on others, unless you stay single, but it is quite hard to do.

Up until a certain age, you can be reliant on people to help you make your way. It's likely too a function of age, when younger you can be less certain of yourself in relationships, and tend to rely more on your mates.

Don't know about in general though as it relates to autism. Know for example that I'm dependent for certain things on my spouse, as he is from me. But I wouldn't call it true co dependency, more of a 'got your back' relationship. I'm pretty independent, more so than my spouse in his own way. Yet I spent a good portion of my life taking care of family members, friends, pets. Who seemed to need it, but was aware of it when I did it.

Lots of people would call it the maternal instinct, to take care of others, and not think of yourself very much. And some females do tend to be wired or brought up that way.

 

[Ocarina]

It's probably a function of age and sex and upbringing. Think there might be more female codepedents than males. Having children, and raising them can makes you more reliant on others, unless you stay single, but it is quite hard to do.

Up until a certain age, you can be reliant on people to help you make your way. It's likely too a function of age, when younger you can be less certain of yourself in relationships, and tend to rely more on your mates.

Don't know about in general though as it relates to autism. Know for example that I'm dependent for certain things on my spouse, as he is from me. But I wouldn't call it true co dependency, more of a 'got your back' relationship. I'm pretty independent, more so than my spouse in his own way. Yet I spent a good portion of my life taking care of family members, friends, pets. Who seemed to need it, but was aware of it when I did it.

Lots of people would call it the maternal instinct, to take care of others, and not think of yourself very much. And some females do tend to be wired or brought up that way.

I think the kind of dependency that you describe in your relationship Mia is healthy interdependency and is what friendships and relationships etc are supposed to be all about.

What seems to happen to me, is that I function as a totally self sufficient entity so I don't ask for or receive a lot of support from my partner but I do end up supporting him (or them) to such an extent that I feel even more separate. I avoid conflict so I tend not to speak up about things when I'm hurt or angry - infact because I'm quite emotionally flat I quite often don't even recognise the emotions to further down the line.

I take acceptance to the nth degree and accept behaviour that doesn't serve me or the relationship. I just want people to accept and like me and I've become very adept at behaving in a way that fills their needs at the expense of my own.

Not sure if that makes any sense - and I agree it's a woman thing to a large extent, exacerbated by having children to look after and little time for oneself. I'm 49 though and my children are growing up - my relationship with them is for the most part honest and interdependent, it's other people I have trouble with - work, partners, ex H - I end up feeling walked all over. Working hard on doing things differently but it's difficult to shift these ingrained habits.

 

[Mia]

What seems to happen to me, is that I function as a totally self sufficient entity so I don't ask for or receive a lot of support from my partner but I do end up supporting him (or them) to such an extent that I feel even more separate. I avoid conflict so I tend not to speak up about things when I'm hurt or angry - infact because I'm quite emotionally flat I quite often don't even recognise the emotions to further down the line.

What you describe is something that I used to be. Would become upset or even angry in retrospect at the commitments I made. Wanted people to like me, respect me, to achieve some kind of connection with others. Felt that as I emulated my own mother, who did this, people would respect who I was.

Yet after awhile, and it took many years, I began to realize that people will let you take responsibility on, even nice people. One of the things I've learned is that you have to say no. To everyone, and you have to practice. You don't have to exactly mean it, and you can change your mind later. It should be your automatic answer, to give yourself time to decide. So that people don't expect that you'll do things for them all the time. For your own sense of self, as you grow older and want to discover what it is that makes you who you are. People, especially aspies experience cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia

So, perhaps it's time to practice saying no. Even if if means that you alienate some, or upset others, they have to learn to accept it. If someone asks something of you, (and I think aspies are prone to saying yes when asked directly or during any kind of confrontation) reply that you'll think about it. Don't commit directly, I'll let you know tomorrow, I'm not sure right now, I'll get back to you, and then of course there is the direct 'no.'

It helps people not to automatically expect things from you. Used to think that people would like me, if I said yes to their requests. But even the kindest people will take advantage of someone who seems to have no needs or desires of their own. This is something I learned from my aspie husband, who learned it the hard way as well. Then or during, start asking for things from others, the time, a free sample, a fresher loaf of bread, anything, ask. It takes time, and courage to do this. But it's final result, is peace and understanding and self-respect.

 

[Ocarina]

What you describe is something that I used to be. Would become upset or even angry in retrospect at the commitments I made. Wanted people to like me, respect me, to achieve some kind of connection with others. Felt that as I emulated my own mother, who did this, people would respect who I was.

Yet after awhile, and it took many years, I began to realize that people will let you take responsibility on, even nice people. One of the things I've learned is that you have to say no. To everyone, and you have to practice. You don't have to exactly mean it, and you can change your mind later. It should be your automatic answer, to give yourself time to decide. So that people don't expect that you'll do things for them all the time. For your own sense of self, as you grow older and want to discover what it is that makes you who you are. People, especially aspies experience cognitive dissonance. Cognitive dissonance - Wikipedia

So, perhaps it's time to practice saying no. Even if if means that you alienate some, or upset others, they have to learn to accept it. If someone asks something of you, (and I think aspies are prone to saying yes when asked directly or during any kind of confrontation) reply that you'll think about it. Don't commit directly, I'll let you know tomorrow, I'm not sure right now, I'll get back to you, and then of course there is the direct 'no.'

It helps people not to automatically expect things from you. Used to think that people would like me, if I said yes to their requests. But even the kindest people will take advantage of someone who seems to have no needs or desires of their own. This is something I learned from my aspie husband, who learned it the hard way as well. Then or during, start asking for things from others, the time, a free sample, a fresher loaf of bread, anything, ask. It takes time, and courage to do this. But it's final result, is peace and understanding and self-respect.

Thank you Mia for your helpful words.

I think that making time for a pause before answering and committing would be really useful and I'll certainly give that a go.

The link to cognitive dissonance is really interesting and that's exactly how I feel - inside I'm principled and self aware, but so often my behaviour doesn't reflect this, particularly in close relationships where I tend to just drift along storing more and more resentment until quite suddenly I've had enough.

Glad to hear that you have worked through this stuff - I'm determined to try.

 

[Prince Aspien]

Hi all,

I find the co-dependency issue one of the most interesting, and of course complex, in autism research. I found it a few months ago, the C-word (!), in a long list of Aspergers "phenomenon". This blew my mind, as I had been struggling with it in my family for some time but had never heard it mentioned with reference to autism. Reading that one word allowed the remaining jigsaw pieces to fall into place!

I had actually been writing a psychiatric memoir (which has the general thrust of being very confused for more than quarter of a century until finding the very extensive list of Aspergers symptoms) describing the intense claustrophobia of my extended family. As you are describing, I became the typical model of co-dependence, feeling responsible for everything, but gradually realising this is a family pattern I had inherited from my father. It was my friend who first described him as a "martyr", some years ago. Once I really observed him I recognised the path I DID NOT want to follow, that of constantly narrating that he is "doing everything". Like myself, it seems he can't relax unless he is thinking up something else to do for another family member.

Anyway, I am a year or so in to trying to work out who I am when I remove this narrative from my own thinking. I do think it fits various other AS symptoms, such as not having a coherent self-identity and of not dealing well with nuance between people, so opting for one "type" of selfhood rather than other as it is simpler: eg, always giving rather than taking, for instance, and feeling intense guilt about relying on others.

Lee

 

[Ocarina]

Hi all,

I find the co-dependency issue one of the most interesting, and of course complex, in autism research. I found it a few months ago, the C-word (!), in a long list of Aspergers "phenomenon". This blew my mind, as I had been struggling with it in my family for some time but had never heard it mentioned with reference to autism. Reading that one word allowed the remaining jigsaw pieces to fall into place!

I had actually been writing a psychiatric memoir (which has the general thrust of being very confused for more than quarter of a century until finding the very extensive list of Aspergers symptoms) describing the intense claustrophobia of my extended family. As you are describing, I became the typical model of co-dependence, feeling responsible for everything, but gradually realising this is a family pattern I had inherited from my father. It was my friend who first described him as a "martyr", some years ago. Once I really observed him I recognised the path I DID NOT want to follow, that of constantly narrating that he is "doing everything". Like myself, it seems he can't relax unless he is thinking up something else to do for another family member.

Anyway, I am a year or so in to trying to work out who I am when I remove this narrative from my own thinking. I do think it fits various other AS symptoms, such as not having a coherent self-identity and of not dealing well with nuance between people, so opting for one "type" of selfhood rather than other as it is simpler: eg, always giving rather than taking, for instance, and feeling intense guilt about relying on others.

Lee

I feel for you in all of this - the thing is on the surface being indispensable to everyone wins you friends, it's a compliment to be looked at as someone who's helpful, who can cope, who's accepting. It only goes wrong when it ends up - as it has in my case, being at ones own expense.

I think you make a very good point about the lack of identity that some of us ASD people suffer - I'm a real social chameleon and whilst that's very useful, it makes it very difficult to be authentic when you don't really know who you are so to speak.

Perhaps the black and white thinking doesn't help either. Codependents tend swing from being angelic supporters to ranting martyrs.

I'm on the same kind of journey as you - it's such a pervasive way of being and it feels "the norm" to me now, so it seems to be a matter of constantly monitoring thoughts and feelings (my own) rather than having a constant radar out for everyone elses reaction.

Thanks for your post - it's good to know I'm not alone in this.

 

[clearly]

Hello

I'm just attempting to unravell myself from yet another failed relationship and trying to undo the patterns that have led to this place I've stumbled upon codependency.
I'm an AS woman late 40s and for my entire life I've been working on how to get others to like me, how to fit in and particularly in intimate relationships I find myself losing myself in a quest to maintain the equanimity of the relationship. It's fine for a while until resentment builds up - I find confrontation almost unbearable and tend to just walk when it gets too difficult.

"For codependents, being open and honest in close relationships may be difficult. Instead of being assertive, initiating action, and meeting your own needs, you hide your truth, react, and feel responsible for others. You become anxious and try to manage, control, and manipulate, often by pleasing or giving advice. Some codependents turn themselves into pretzels trying to accommodate others, because they feel too guilty to say “No.”

Hi Ocarina.

The words above describe me and my life to a T, and I also have Aspergers (AS). So yes, I can relate completely with you - it's not easy is it? I am the same age as you and I have come out of a very short and painful relationship with a sociopath all because (I feel) I was too polite to tell the monster to take a hike, (to say no) which I believe is down to my people pleasing traits and codependency.

I understand the resentment building up because of the inability to assert oneself, and just like you, I will walk away, usually after I have first 'exploded'.

It's slightly different for me as I was married for over twenty years to a wonderful man who worshiped the ground I walked on, and made my life bearable and stable. He also protected me from the world, which looking back, wasn't the best thing to do, but it was what I needed at the time. It wasn't until he died three years ago that the poop hit the fan so to speak, and my safe haven had gone in an instant. My marriage wasn't plain sailing (what marriage is) but my husband always supported me 100%; he knew and respected my limitations (I know I had many) and I knew he would always be there for me, no matter what. I am glad I had that.

I am at the time of my life now where I am finished with relationships of any kind with men as I really cannot trust myself not to fall for another disordered person, I won't take the risk again. I am still very naive, and even though I know I am, it doesn't stop me being naive...I just don't know how to not be naive, so if a man shows interest in me now, I run.

Take care, and try not to overthink things whilst unravelling. It's been seven months since I saw the sociopath and I am still fairly messed up and not much further forward in my 'recovery', so take your time and look after yourself.

 

[Larisa]

I was co-dependent with my parents because I could not believe that they lie to me about their intentions (they said that they wanted changes in relationships with me but actually - as it took me years to realize - they were totally comfortable the way things were).
This revelation boggled my mind that they LIED and they treated me not as a separate living person but as their speaking property.
They loved me in their own way - but I understood that I could not accept their meaning of 'love': it was killing me inside.
So I went to live separately and visited them till they died.
I have friends but as I never could build intimate relationships because I'm touchy about being percieved and treated as a THING with garanteed properties.
I think you're not co-dependent - in my opinion if you were open about your 'no' and your discomfort - you simply would not get ANY relationships at all.
I didn't But I'm not obsessed about that aspect - I live my life to be happy and I get more relaxation and happiness with friends I can be open and with whom I have some common interests to explore and from whom I can get distance when I feel like I need time and space for myself.

 

[Ambi]

I've had a lot of issues with relationships in the past, trying to figure out the things you are trying to figure out. I don't know if I was co-dependent, love addicted, or what. Reading about those things really helped me, though. A book that really helped me also was "Attached", which is about our own attachment styles. It taught me that I was instinctively attracted to men who were wrong for me, and explained why....and I was able to recognize the signs and stop. It really helped me recognize the right mate, to whom I am now married. Just before this one came along, I actually almost fell again for the wrong type! I actually forced myself to turn away, and now I am glad I did. Funny thing is, I also tended to attract that wrong (for me) type. I am not sure if you are co-dependent, but if you think you are, you might also want to check out info on attachment theory applied to romantic relationships, it might be helpful.

 

[Ocarina]

Hi Ocarina.

The words above describe me and my life to a T, and I also have Aspergers (AS). So yes, I can relate completely with you - it's not easy is it? I am the same age as you and I have come out of a very short and painful relationship with a sociopath all because (I feel) I was too polite to tell the monster to take a hike, (to say no) which I believe is down to my people pleasing traits and codependency.

I understand the resentment building up because of the inability to assert oneself, and just like you, I will walk away, usually after I have first 'exploded'.

It's slightly different for me as I was married for over twenty years to a wonderful man who worshiped the ground I walked on, and made my life bearable and stable. He also protected me from the world, which looking back, wasn't the best thing to do, but it was what I needed at the time. It wasn't until he died three years ago that the poop hit the fan so to speak, and my safe haven had gone in an instant. My marriage wasn't plain sailing (what marriage is) but my husband always supported me 100%; he knew and respected my limitations (I know I had many) and I knew he would always be there for me, no matter what. I am glad I had that.

I am at the time of my life now where I am finished with relationships of any kind with men as I really cannot trust myself not to fall for another disordered person, I won't take the risk again. I am still very naive, and even though I know I am, it doesn't stop me being naive...I just don't know how to not be naive, so if a man shows interest in me now, I run.

Take care, and try not to overthink things whilst unravelling. It's been seven months since I saw the sociopath and I am still fairly messed up and not much further forward in my 'recovery', so take your time and look after yourself.

I know your pain Clearly - I also feel ridiculously naive. I love this about myself in some ways but it does make me incredibly wary. I see all people as inherently good - even though some fall into the good but damaged category. I don't tend to get super emotionally involved in relationships perhaps because I am being cautious perhaps because of my AS but I do just sit there being passive about all the things I don't like - being ridiculously accepting - as you said maybe out of politeness! Until I can stand no more. I just don't seem to be able to advocate for my own needs or treat myself as though I am important - or even exist!

I too was married for 15 years and now divorced - my exH was a good man, but I found myself growing further and further away from him because I could never be honest about myself, who I was, what I needed - that and the pressure of family life broke the relationship for me.

My current relationship with an AS man is falling apart - I've been accepting of him to the nth degree so he pretty much does what he likes - often at my expense. I can feel the resentment creeping and the respect for myself seeping away.

I'd like to have a relationship that works - and I wonder if having a third party involved ie a counsellor to keep me on the right track might work.

Good luck to you - I've been fortunate in that my partners have never been out and out abusive. Hope you find some peace soon.

 

[Ocarina]

All these replies have made me think - I don't feel codependent in the sense that I'm addicted to a person or a thing so much as when I'm in the relationship I feel powerless to do anything that may cause conflict, so I go along with whatever, accepting behaviour that makes me feel unpleasant - anything rather than rocking the boat.

I often feel numb - as though I could just deal with literally anything that came along - I don't caretake as much as allow if that makes sense - allow in order to prevent conflict.

I can vividly remember at the age of 16 becoming aware of how to win friends and boyfriends - by listening to them, taking notice, agreeing. It worked and I reached a point where I could be whatever someone wanted in order to keep them on side. It wasn't intentionally manipulative but exhausting, pointless and always ended in disaster.

I want to change this and I'm starting to try to present an honest view of myself to those I'm close to. It's a slow process but it feels good even to have started.